Rosemary Ainslie circuit demonstration on Saturday March 12th 2011

[poynt99]

i see. so would you or humbooger care to explain just exactly how it is that you can connect the measuring device (another circuit), much less the current shunt, to the original and not have it affected? preferably in the real world, with a bench experiment... thanks!

Use a simple RC filter, whereby the R value is substantially higher than the impedance of the node being measured. For example with a 0.25 Ohm CSR, placing a 10k or even 1k Ohm resistor at the MOSFET Source in series with a 10u so capacitor will allow for good isolation from the circuit so as not to affect it's operation, and provide a near pure DC voltage representing current, that can be accurately measured using a common DMM.

Use a high enough time constant (R*C) to substantially filter out the varying voltage at the measurement point. For eg, if your switching frequency is 50Hz (20ms period), use a tau of at least 50 times longer (1s). If we use a 10k resistor, then we need a capacitance of 100u. Obviously, the higher the frequency of operation, the smaller C value can be used. The DMM (set to DC Voltage) will provide additional averaging such that the final measurement will be very accurate.

See attached schema for RC filter on the CSR.

.99

[WilbyInebriated]

Use a simple RC filter, whereby the R value is substantially higher than the impedance of the node being measured. For example with a 0.25 Ohm CSR, placing a 10k or even 1k Ohm resistor at the MOSFET Source in series with a 10u so capacitor will allow for good isolation from the circuit so as not to affect it's operation, and provide a near pure DC voltage representing current, that can be accurately measured using a common DMM.

Use a high enough time constant (R*C) to substantially filter out the varying voltage at the measurement point. For eg, if your switching frequency is 50Hz (20ms period), use a tau of at least 50 times longer (1s). If we use a 10k resistor, then we need a capacitance of 100u. Obviously, the higher the frequency of operation, the smaller C value can be used. The DMM (set to DC Voltage) will provide additional averaging such that the final measurement will be very accurate.

See attached schema for RC filter on the CSR.

.99

is this gonna be like our sim conversation at energetic? do i really have to play lawyer again...
let me rephrase my question counselor. please explain to the good people how it is that by "placing a 10k or even 1k Ohm resistor at the MOSFET Source in series with a 10u so capacitor will allow for good isolation from the circuit." ideally you could demonstrate this (tk's probe placement video comes to mind, where he shows the trace change) with a circuit similar to rose's circuit... ideally you could show there is no change. then we can discuss the inadequacy of 24 bit scopes... 

[evolvingape]

Hello Everyone,

I have been thinking about what has been discussed in this thread and trying to formulate a logical plan to move forward.

It has become obvious that due to the classical and non classical debate there is not going to be any resolution when it comes to measurements of the circuits components themselves, inputs, outputs, or indeed any hard values for measurements at all. So far we have only unsubstantiated conjecture.

At this point it is irresponsible of any of us to make any assumptions as to what is occurring in this circuit. If we had any hard data at all then maybe we could, but we do not...

So...

I am going to propose this:

How about Rosemary and her team sets up a test experiment where new batteries are load tested and recharged independently before the test begins. Three times each should suffice for gaining an accurate average of the batteries ability to store charge. I would prefer to see lead acid cells used and delivered dry so that the acid can be added to the water yourself to accurately control the specific gravity of the electrolyte. You would also be able to test each individual cell of the battery for bad cells.

The batteries are then connected to a large distribution block that will power many individual circuits. We are probably talking something like 100 circuits at least here, maybe more.

The circuit heating elements will all be submersed in a large tank of water at ambient pressure. A separate tank will have temperature controlled water to match the test tank temperature, and be controlled by a simple cork float switch. This would keep the test tank volume at the same level and allow water converted to steam to vent to atmosphere.

Obviously the circuitry for the temperature control of the additional supply tank will not be part of the experiment, it is just there to ensure that the water is the same temperature as the test tank.

So, leave this running for a long time, say a month, and then disconnect everything and perform a load test on all the batteries. This will tell us whether the charge holding capacity has changed during the experiment.

The temperature of the test tank water would have been accurately monitored throughout, as would the voltage across the battery bank.

By performing the experiment this way all of the energetic processes will be converted within the system and remove the need for any other measurements by people.

It will very quickly become apparent whether there has been any loss of energy from the supply, therefore proving or disproving Rosemary's claims that the battery charge remains stable without loss or gain. I think we would all agree that a battery can maintain its voltage at a stable level without actually maintaining its charge, so the net power (Watts available) would decrease. This is why Voltage measurements on a large battery are next to useless for measurement purposes, and are insufficient to prove anything on their own.

Questions:

1) Would the addition of a large distribution block affect the results sufficiently to disqualify the experiment ?

2) Would the addition of 100 circuits affect the ability of the “energetic mass” that Rosemary absolutely requires to deliver sufficient “current pressure” to the many circuits ?

3) Would you all agree that this would conclusively prove whether the Watts within the system are not consumed, and that the excess energy, if any, will be shown by temperature measurement of the water ?

I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter,

RM

[WilbyInebriated]

i have a question. why is that science, with all it's fancy fancy equations and formulas, cannot measure exactly how much energy is in a battery? and let's not be facetious and suggest that load testing and then averaging is exact...

[markdansie]

Hi pirate, Willy and other
I am sad this thread has degenerated into some mudslinging for whatever reason.
I admire what Rosemary is doing for some time
However, I also support the many who has challenged (without the insults) the way the power in and out is calculated and measured.
This was a response to a claim made that there was no net drawdown on the battery, yet no data was given to support this claim.
Many suggestions of how best do this have come forward, some may be the right way to go and some perhaps the wrongway to go in how to measure.
If the issue was raised by just one person then it could be argued that it is not an issue. However it has been raised by many.
This does not distract from the efforth Rose has undertaken and I echo your sentiments expressed.
Mark