Hydro Differential pressure exchange over unity system.

[LarryC]

 

[fletcher]

So... if I may be permitted to get back on topic for a moment....

The Zeds go through a cycle, right, a complete cycle, gaining something for each cycle in terms of work/energy. Right? So... there is no law, is there, that the cycle has to start at the bottom, I think... it just has to wind up exactly where it started from, but that starting position could just as well be the top of the lift as the bottom of it. Right? As long as a complete cycle is performed, winding back up at the top.

And also, or maybe the same thing,  we could consider the "output" ... the great weight lifted a small distance... to be the "input" when running backwards. So you start at the top, use the great weight to push down the small distance which then causes the small weight to rise a great distance until you are back at the normal, bottom "start"position, then you continue through the second half of the cycle until the small weight (or piston) is down and the great weight is up again, an inverse cycle.

That destroys energy, or makes input work vanish... or something. 


Ahhh... I think I need another cup of instant coffee.

In our double ZED system if we let go - they equalize - this does not mean that both ZEDS are in the middle - but the heads inside the ZEDs are equal - one can be on the way up and on the way down.

The "Bottom" is never seen - the set up process is designed to have the lowest point - above the bottom - or else the pressure from the weight will drop.

And Yes - on the way up the Hydraulic load is the output from the changing the head - and on the way down - the weight causes the output of water pressure - transfer of the head.

It is a dual inverse process - both sides are producing in both directions.

The non linear function is due to the distribution of head in varying diameters (layers) of the ZED, the head distribution on the down stroke favors the smaller diameter - making the weight production (down stroke) more productive than the cost of the weight on the upstroke.

Wayne

I realize your questions are mostly rhetorical TK - the cycle can start anywhere you like - like mapping a 4 stroke Otto cycle - it just makes more intuitive sense to start a cycle at equilibrium before fuel or forces are added to change the machine condition from static [equilibrium state] to dynamic.

Yes, what you propose is the norm - take a normal hydraulic jack/ram for example - a small force is applied to a small input piston area over a long stroke distance - this generates a pressure in the hydraulic fluid [pressure = force /area] - due to pascal's law the pressure is transmitted equally all thru the fluid - the pressure acts on a large piston area acting over a short stroke distance at the output end - since .. force = pressure x area .. the force is greatly magnified - it can be used to raise a masses PE like jacking a car.


BUT ... Work In [ f x d ] joules = Work Out of raising PE [ mgh ] joules - so you could just as easily reverse the system & apply a large weight force [with PE given to it by WD] to the Output end to reset the Input - zero sum energy game [not considering ordinary losses] in either 'cycle flow' direction as you propose in your thought experiment.

Where this becomes perhaps less obvious is when Potential Energy is raised by a system having Work/Energy done on it as described above - once the Output seen as increased system PE [e.g. raised mass or increased pressure] then that PE could be given back again to set the system to equilibrium [& positions of least PE] - IOW's, no Work/Energy should be required to reverse the cycle direction to return PE gained [other than covering system losses of frictions etc] N.B. WD joules were expended to give initial the mass PE.

What Mr Wayne describes does not fit any world view I currently hold because he seems to say he can raise system PE [pressure] with no Input Energy, once the system is given one-off initialization pressurization - And extract some of the PE as Work/Energy Output, then use the remainder PE to reset system to lowest PE equilibrium conditions again, & maintain system initialization pressurization - all using gravity & initial energy to pressurize the system - this is not a description of an engine as I know it, nor a zero sum energy game, obviously !

So ... I guess that's why I follow the discovery process of builds & sims - in the hope that new science & logical understanding will unfold of apparently paradoxical machines/engines which will educate me & alter my world view - OR ... that process reveals a logical error.

[MT]

Hi all,
thanks for your posts, you are triggering new thoughts...

Yesterday I was looking again at picture of complete ZED cycle. I noticed two new things for me.

First: in fully prechared step is pressure in inner container 8psi. After full stroke step there is still 8psi. New for me is that water is being added also during stroke not only dyring precharge step! Precharge step is clear it has two phases, first is equalization to 6.7 with other ZED then in second phase hydraulics increase this to 8psi.

Second: Where is water added. I always though  water is added only in inner cylinder under pod. But picture suggests watter added also in containers for second riser and third riser, see water level in 2nd and 3rd container after full stroke. I thought those 3 inner containers are completely isolated and only precharged to certain volume of water and air at certain pressure. Maybe just picture is not correct...

MrWayne can you please clarify this?

Marcel

[neptune]

@MT let me try to answer your questions. You are correct about the charging of the ZED having two phases.
Note that the waters in the two zeds are kept separate. Look at the pictures on Wayne`s website . You will see two convoluted rubber bags. They are linked mechanically so as one fills, it squeezes the other, causing it to emit water under pressure.So as one zed discharges, it is starting to inflate its rubber bag. This squeezes the second bag, causing it to inject water into the second Zed. This movement would stop when both Zeds are at the same pressure. But at this point a hydraulic ram, fed from the hydraulic accumulator, causes the process to continue.
     Water is only ever fed into a Zed at one point, the bottom of the pod chamber. You may have been confused by what I think are drain taps in the bottom of other compartments. These would be for set-up and maintenance.
          The rise in water levels in other water masses is due to the pressure of the water injected into the pod chamber causing air and water to move through the system towards the outside of the ZED.

[mrwayne]

Hi all,
thanks for your posts, you are triggering new thoughts...

Yesterday I was looking again at picture of complete ZED cycle. I noticed two new things for me.

First: in fully prechared step is pressure in inner container 8psi. After full stroke step there is still 8psi. New for me is that water is being added also during stroke not only dyring precharge step! Precharge step is clear it has two phases, first is equalization to 6.7 with other ZED then in second phase hydraulics increase this to 8psi.

Second: Where is water added. I always though  water is added only in inner cylinder under pod. But picture suggests watter added also in containers for second riser and third riser, see water level in 2nd and 3rd container after full stroke. I thought those 3 inner containers are completely isolated and only precharged to certain volume of water and air at certain pressure. Maybe just picture is not correct...

MrWayne can you please clarify this?

Marcel

Hello Marcel,
First - good question -
You are correct that once 8 psi is hit - we continue to add water - only to the pod in this model.
Water added after precharge is stroke volume - at the same pressure.

The water levels change in response to the increased air pressure - caused by the input of water into the pod - they are all connected via the layering system.

p.s. this is a very very old drawing - so they are conceptual - and need to be understood in that manner.
We now control the water levels and the reaction in our optimizations.

Thanks Wayne