Hydro Differential pressure exchange over unity system.

[fletcher]

Can I point out that there may be a problem in building a ZED that uses two liquids instead of air and water. It is my belief that the Zed works because of the difference in density between air and water.

If we used a mineral oil in place of air, the problem is that the densities of oil and water are closer than the densities of water and air. Wayne suggested that if we replaced the water with mercury, and replaced the air with water, the COP would increase by a factor of 13.

So it seems to me that good results demand two fluids of widely different densities.

Some thoughts to ponder Neptune.

Water is about 770 times more dense than air [also a fluid] at sea level [1 atmosphere] - that's a ratio of say 800:1.

Mercury has a specific gravity of about 13.55 so that's a ratio of say 13:1 compared to water - a far lesser differential as you point out.

Yet Wayne says using a lesser differential increases COP by a FACTOR of 13, eerily close to the mercury specific gravity or specific weight.

This might suggest that the ratio between ZED mass to water & ZED mass to mercury is the important ratio - this might suggest that the ZED is for floatation of a mass in a fluid rather than doing Work - a more dense fluid like mercury would require 13th the volume transferred in & out to float the ZED leading to downstream factored COP advantages - it also might have some relationship to LarryC's ratio of Pod area to water gap area of about 11:1 in his spreadsheet.

Below is a pic I pulled this morning to show how to calculate the density of an oil when a fluid density is unknown - it was really to illustrate linear pressure changes after interfacing of two different density fluids - in the multi-layered ZED I believe the relative densities have to be far enough apart to allow the outer retainer head to control the compound levering effect floating the Pod & Risers.

JMO's.

[mondrasek]

Yet Wayne says using a lesser differential increases COP by a FACTOR of 13, eerily close to the mercury specific gravity or specific weight.

@fletcher, this was pointed out to me by PM.  I haven't checked the facts myself but thought it important to post.  Hopefully someone has the time to research and correct us all:

Wayne said that mercury and water increased the output by nearly five times - He did not say that the increase was 13.  He may have said the Mercury is 13 times heaver than water - the gain in using mercury and water comes from the lack of compression - which means the Layers all move equally - causing a faster increase in lift (less volume) - and the weight of mercury increases the Maximum lift .

Those two effects combined - make the non compressable a (tested) superior combination.

I apologize for not fact checking myself.  I'm a bit busy this evening.

M.

[GreenHiker]

From Wayne in August as he replied to Fletcher's post:

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Title: Re: Hydro Differential pressure exchange over unity system.
Post by: mrwayne on August 22, 2012, 09:34:21 PM
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"I am a little overwhelmed at the quality of this response -
So let me say a few things that popped in my head when trying to follow it.

The Neutral buoyancy question (for the riser) - normally - less weight means more output - that is in a traditional system - but our is Non- linear.

This means - a certain amount of weight - at the right range of the polynominal - is a great advantage - cheap to lift and valuable to sink - cost reduction in both directions. Loss of ideal output - but a great reduction in the cost of a less than ideal output.

The density of the water is also important - yet it is not the "expansion of the air"  where we operate the piston - or pull power out of the system - this is a mistaken understanding of our operation. - at the end of the up stroke - all the air is still compressed to the highest point - which is the same as the precharge compressed value - only we raised the height of the water below the pod to stroke - inch for inch - after precharge.
(side note - the air does expand - but while we are lowering - not rising - and not all the way - just until the weight of the risers equalize with the head).

We use the heavy density "water" to pressurize the lighter density air - and when the equilibrium of the load is met - we maintain this equilibrium to stroke.

The lighter density is what pushes up - if you could measure the density of the air - you would see that the force applied to the riser is minus the value of that density - it would be easy to measure in a mercury water set up.

Mercury More density) could replace the water, and Water could replace the Air (less density) and the system would work much better - not thirteen times better -  because water has more density than air (twelve times better would be a safe bet).

A mercury water system would not have expansion and allow for extreme control of the water levels during operation.

I hope this helps - it is important to understand that this system is a pressure diffirential system - casued by gravitys effect on density - the seperating walls redistribute where the diffirential is focused.
The mass "reuse" is what causes the ZED to be Over Unity ....TK's Virtual Mass is the begining of the real understanding.
It also answers where the Energy Comes from - hope to see you all their!"

[TinselKoala]

Hmmm.

Mondrasek said MrWayne said,

Wayne said that mercury and water increased the output by nearly five times - He did not say that the increase was 13.

(emphasis his)

And Greenhiker said that MrWayne said,

Mercury More density) could replace the water, and Water could replace the Air (less density) and the system would work much better - not thirteen times better -  because water has more density than air (twelve times better would be a safe bet).

(emphasis mine)

Hmm. It also appears that MrWayne said that this proposition had been tested. Well..... where is the test data, the blurry photo of the test apparatus, the explanation of where the mercury was disposed of..... and so forth. Under the circumstances -- since both the statements above cannot be true -- permit me to express my doubts that a mercury-water Zed system has ever actually been tested AT ALL and shown to produce 13 times more overunity performance than a water-air Zed system. Or twelve times. Or even five times.


Meanwhile, let me just say this: Galinstan.

[see3d]

@Builders,

I think I have a pretty good handle on most of the factors involved in initial setup of a ZED now.  It was driving me a bit crazy for a long while before I finally realized that I was trying to over constrain the initial conditions.  Mutually exclusive conditions created an impossible starting state.  No wonder the formulas were not happy.  The issue is that only one air pressure in one layer can be specified.  All the others will have a geometric relationship to the one.  Alternatively, only the volume of water can be specified for each layer -- not each individual head for the same reason.  I have chosen to allow the following initial items to be manually specified in the simulator:

-- With an initial relative air PSI of zero (i.e., riser vents open), the water level of each riser layer.
-- The water level of the Pod.
-- The air PSI of the last riser layer before the exit (exhaust).  This value will create a head differential in all the other layers.

In addition, the final balancing of the Riser Pod is automatically adjusted by one of the following methods:

1.  None
2.  External balance
3.  Manual balance from initial setup above
4.  External input balancing force applied (Pod water injection) -- will alter Pod water level and air pressures.
5.  Adjustment override of the air PSI of the last riser layer.

Other places that a balancing input could be done, but not currently planned due to more complex code:

-- Addition of more Pod water (same as 4. above, except water piston remains on its lower stop)
-- Addition of more exit (exhaust) water (similar to 5. above) -- this would force head differentials and increase air PSI.

For matching the sim to a build, once the geometry is input, and the water volumes and heads are measured, the air PSI input can be manually tweaked to match. 

For match a build setup to a sim model, the process is to fill each water pocket with the specified volume of water with vents open, then we could close the vents and add air pressure to the last air pocket until the head differentials match the sim, or add a specified amount of additional water to the exit.

I welcome comments on this part of the sim user interface.

~Dennis

PS: Just for fun; the setup output force vs number of layers for one particular setup.  This is just for the progression not absolute numbers.  The outside dimensions of the ZED were held constant, but each layer was added from the outside to the inside, shrinking the Pod diameter in the process.  (not verified):

Layers, Pounds:

0, 0
1, 1.08
2, 3.27
3, 5.94
4, 9.00
5, 12.30
6, 15.59