Hydro Differential pressure exchange over unity system.

[Lakes]

For your amusement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2M05d8J8fU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8OVSPVKLBI

Excellent demo.

[neptune]

@LarryC, reference your diagram with the balloons. I can see what you are trying to show, but at this stage I remain unconvinced. IMO, for the diagram to represent reality, You would need to show a tube connecting the necks of the two balloons together. As shown , the balloons would cause centering, but in real life, as things go off centre, air is free to flow around the riser to the other side.


Regarding the centring issue generally,what is required depends on if we are using a stand alone Zed, or if it forms part of a more complex machine, for example a self runner. For a stand alone Zed just being used to lift weights, strips of plastic used as spacers could work.
        For a self runner, I would build it like the old beam engines[steam]. By using two parallel beams, one above the other, [Desaguliers Beams], the risers, which Wayne said may all be fixed together, would be forced to move up and down without cocking. They would actually move in a slight arc, but remember the stroke is short, and the beam  could be relatively long. By placing the beams fulcrum off centre, we could amplify the stroke length if desired. For a self runner I favour a crankshaft and flywheel setup.
      The fact that the risers move in a slight arc is less important now that Wayne has said that gaps can be up to half an inch.

[mrwayne]

On the question of self centering.
I grasped the idea from our bearingless pond pump - it directs the water pumped around the free floating armature - best pump I ever had.
Also - I worked AT Anhueser Busch for 19 years (until I was funded for thisproject) - the most important bearings were Hydraulic - non - contact bearings - precise to .00001
Also - real world application our six foot Zeds - no guides - .20 gaps do not touch during operation.
The alignment with the output shaft and Final riser is important
Important to note - the inner pressure is always greater - so the alignment improves as you near the center.

Wayne

[neptune]

The feed tube is a long cylinder I attached at to the bottom of the unit and feeds the pod chamber, inside the feed tube is a close clearance piston so that when I push down on the piston the water is pushed up the sides of the piston raising the head, if you will and allowing it all to enter into the system through the pod chamber.

@Webby1.Can i ask you a few questions please.
1. I suppose you have thought of this, but is the piston in the feed tube neutrally buoyant? If not, and it tends to float, you are wasting energy sinking it.


2. Could you give your best rough estimate of how many cycles per minute are possible in a Zed of the size you built?


3. Wayne has said that in proposed very large machines he proposes to use a crankshaft. I, and no doubt others have thought of using a crankshaft in a small model.In using a crankshaft, a flywheel is desirable to carry the crank over the dead centres.  If the crankshaft turns slowly, as it must, we need to gear up the flywheel to run at reasonable RPM, to preclude the need for a large heavy flywheel.
My question is this. From your observations, would you say that the pause at top dead centre and bottom dead centre can be short enough to avoid stopping the crankshaft at those points?


If I am thinking right, and we use a crankshaft, then it would be possible to operate the piston on your feed tube by a separate crank on the same crankshaft, having a larger "throw" than the crank connected to the ZED.

[fletcher]

Question: what is the desired mass target for actual risers themselves...weight wise...lighter is better, middling, or there some value they need to be optimally?


That is, should they be lighter than the water, or heavier, or neutrally buoyant...


Stated again, if sunk in the water sideways like a filled cup, assuming it is deep enough, they would

a) float bigtime

b) float just under the surface

c) sink fairly quickly

d) sink like a filled Titanic.

rc

No one in the know seems to want to answer your question or it's been missed - I'll give some observations/comments for you to consider - I'm not sure whether you are talking about Webby's build or a single layer ZED build - I'll assume you mean a generic single layer ZED that see3d is simulating, & so I'll relate these comments to his simulation diagrams which you can find by downloading his pdf a few pages back.

If you start with the proposition that the ZED unit is at equilibrium [all forces are equalized] & that the riser is NOT latched, & that the system is not pressurized, then the volume density of the riser dictates where the water levels are up the side of the riser - incidentally, for an unpressurized system this will be the position of least Potential Energy.

Assuming that the riser is made of dense & strong material to reduce deformation then it is likely to be hollow with thin walls - the "Floatation Law" will decide how high the riser would be in relation to the surface [or apparent surface] of the water.

1. If the riser volume density is greater than the same volume of water then it will sink to the bottom.

N.B. there is still an buoyancy force so its apparent weight will still be significant - there will be no upthrust net force.

2. If the riser volume density is equal to the same volume of water then it will be neutrally buoyant [the same as having the same packet of water instead of the riser volume].

3. If the riser volume density is less that the same volume of water then it will rise in relation to the water surface level.

N.B.1. If the riser volume density is very low it would float above a water level with most of it visible above the water line - if its volume density is medium perhaps only 1/3 to a 1/2 etc would be visible - if its volume density is rather high but still less than water not much would be visible above the water line, like an iceberg.

N.B.2. The buoyancy force [using Archimedes examples] is the inverse of the gravitational force of the same volume of water - if the riser had no mass the upthrust force would be equal & opposite to the force of gravity acting on the same volume of water - then you subtract from the buoyancy force the gravity force acting on the actual mass of the riser [this is the apparent weight] - you are left with a NET upthrust force - this upthrust force is inverse & proportional to the riser density/mass, therefore more apparent weight means reduced upthrust force to use to do Work.

.................

What this means in the single layer ZED is that we don't have contiguous water surface levels - there is water rising up the sides of the riser.

We can deduce that the riser is at equilibrium, not under pressure, & that it has a medium buoyancy & therefore a medium upthrust capability.

Change the materials of the riser to change the mass & all those relationship reach a new equilibrium & Work capability, including water levels.

.................

Where it becomes important in the ZED is because it is purportedly not a true Archimedes buoyancy system - so what we see when the ZED is at the START of a cycle [i.e. in equilibrium & position of least PE] is water pressure levels & head developed - the head is from the meniscus of the outside water column adjacent the pod wall & open to ambient air.

The water pressure increases with depth from that datum [which moves upwards when the cycle is started & the piston does Work on the system] - the important bit is that water pressure has no shearing moment, IOW's, it acts at right angles to any & all surfaces.

So there will be an upward force [water pressure] on the underside of the riser [this pressure cum force is derived by apparent depth from head height] - there will be a greater water pressure cum force acting downwards vertically on the piston head, also derived from apparent water depth - N.B. there is no normal Archimedes water volume displacement to create this head depth but the pressures/force 'feel' & act as though there was. EDIT: i.e. the pressures developed mean that the piston has to do Work as though it were lifting an equivalent mass of water.

Remembering that as the piston does Work [expends energy] on the system the water head rises & since the riser is latched & released when the upthrust force is optimized, it will move upwards generating a useable force to do Work - then the system enters the second stage of the cycle & returns to equilibrium & position of least PE, to start over.

That's my take & hope it helps.

P.S. - the traditional science view says that the Work Done/Energy Input on the piston, which in turn pressurizes the air pocket & raisers the H2 water level, which creates the head [when the riser is in locked down mode], is the same Work Done/Energy as the riser upthrust capability in Work/Energy Output, less system losses of energy.

So we are trying to identify where the anomaly is that allows apparent OU if measurements are correct as reported by Mr Wayne - it would seem that it might be contained in the pneumatic portion of the system somehow, but then that fly's in the face of some contributors comments about different density fluids [non compressible] showing the same potentials which would seem to rule out pneumatic contribution as the cause.

The upshot being that more energy out than in, empirically proven, would prove that gravity [from which buoyancy is a considered a  downstream effect] is not conservative & that the laws of thermodynamics would need amendment IF no environmental energy entered the system - this would be a game changer at so many levels that its importance couldn't be underestimated.