4X3 Permanent Magnet Motor concept

[jake]

An interesting quote from Sterling Allen that supports my position:


"If these guys (and others doing similar research, like Bedini) truly are getting over unity, and it isn't just a measurement error due to an unusual electromagnetic phenomenon, then it probably has to do with something that is happening to alter normal magnetic flux at the point where magnetic lock-up of the magnets is overcome by the proper electromagnetic pulse. Perhaps that sudden flip-flop is the gate to the inflow of external energy from ___ (fill in the blank: zero point energy? magnetic energy? gravity? or something else not even named or conceived yet?)" -- Sterling D. Allan (SilverThunder 10:06, 23 Feb 2006 (EST))

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor

[Liberty]

For any device to be useful, it must produce a lot of torque.  Most of the OU designs are vain attempts to get something to just rotate itself.  I see little value in this objective.  Step back and be objective, and look at how many examples there are of "I'm almost there" when you go through these forums.  There have been many brilliant people spend lifetimes trying to get a perfectly balanced wheel to be perpetually out of balance, or a force balanced magnetic contraption to rotate forever.  The device always wins.  It quickly or slowly relaxes into its equalibrium and sits there.

I find it unreasonable to think that any magnetic device without some outside stimulus will keep rotating.  It is the equivalent of thinking that some kind of gravity wheel will keep rotating.  The forces are balanced at some point (or all points) in the rotation in all these devices.  When the forces are balanced the device will not move.  You must disturb the equalibrium to cause motion.

As for magnetic devices with outside stimulation, I find it reasonable to think that there may be a chance to find COP>1.  It could be that the outside stimulus will tap in to some unknown and allow a COP > 1.

I will not entertain designs that include magnets only (no outside stimulus such as coils, etc.).  I believe it to be unreasonable to think that any magnet only device will produce any positive results.  Same goes for gravity only devices (gravity wheels, etc.) with no outside stimulus.  I would eliminate gravity-magnetic combinations for the same reason.  There is always equalibrium in these devices.

It should be intuitively obvious to a person with a minimal understanding of physics that gravity wheels will not work.  It should be just as obvious that magnet only devices will not work.  The magnets act as static forces, and a simple force analysis will expose that they can't work.

If you add electrically stimulated coils, I don't think the situation is hopeless.  The coils can cause disturbances to the otherwise static forces and provide the necessary stimulation to make the device actually rotate (Kundel, for example).  The trick is to shock the system in some way that taps into the undefined forces to create to COP > 1 that we are looking for.  Perhaps some kind of high voltage zap will cause the system to grab energy from the ether, or whatever.

But, as for me, I will not invest time in any gravity only, magnet only, or gravity-magnet device that doesn't have some other stimulation mechanism.  It is unreasonable to believe any such device will work - in my opinion.  In fact, there is some evidence to believe that when a magnet only device appears to work, the magnets deplete without explanation, and the device slowly stops - I have seen at least two reported cases of this on this site.

This leads me to believe that, ironically, if you figure out a way to get "power" from magnets, the magnets appear to deplete. (once again the second law wins)

If someone credibly and openly demonstrates otherwise, in a manner that is easily and widely reproduced, I will be most happy to say I was wrong.  Until then, my money and effort goes toward a more efficient, lighter, more powerful motor as the first objective - because it is reasonable to believe it can be done, and it has great benefits immediately.

I would mostly agree with Jake.  I think that using stimulus to the magnet motor and recovering the power used for motor operation (like Mr. Kundel's motor) through turning a alternator or generator would be the best method to use. 

Even though I believe that on the "Liberty motor" that I made, it would be possible to run the motor without power with a little redesign, but it probably would not be the best way to run the motor, because you could not control it as well.

I agree with Jake, that we will need high torque magnet motors that can be used in a small 'hub' to help provide motive power to our current vehicles, or something like it.  The hub device would be readily attachable.  It would be necessary and timely to have available until such time as a magnet motor alternator device can be developed to help to power it.  So it is good to persue both devices in my opinion. 

[Gregory]

Thanks for your response, Jake.
Okay, I don't want to convince you, or anybody, I never wanted. It's just an idea I'm trying myself.
By the way I really agree with you, electricity and magnetism work best together, and an only magnetic device itself is not practical. I just think, if you have one, and understand how it works, you have better understandings to make a good magnetic-electromagnetic device wich is suitable for usual applications. Thats all.
If I'm not annoying you... Please can you clarify for me, which ones are those devices you mention they are depleted? Maybe one is the Perendev one? And the other?
Thank you.


Hello Liberty,
If you really feel, your machine can run without electricity with a little redesign, I recommend to try it, and if it truly run, you can add your (new) coil setup to it, and make it powerful.
But I don't want to prejudice you, or chip on your work.

Good work all for you!

[jake]

Here are notes from the first one that made an impression on me (This is not perendev):

CONCLUSION:

This kind of device is interesting, and the principle
is easy to understand and to follow.
In my experiments, my magnets got weak after some
hours of testing and never reached speeds more than
100..150 revolutions/minute. This shows, that much
energy is lost due to eddy currents wich are inducted in the
soft iron and the nickel-plating of the magnets i used.
Maybe also a big loss of energy is caused by my magnets itself,
on memeber of the group tells me that my magnets (NeFeB)
are highly conductive and so they are itself a big reason
to brake the system due to eddy currents.

This the device spins without initial startup for up to 50 seconds.
(I had some longer runs (up to five minutes) but this runs are not
predictable and not safely repeatable.) 40-50 Second runs
without any starting action was the "normal", wich is interesting
enough to think and experiment a little bit more..

Further experiments will show, if ceramic magnets
will do a better job!

greetings
helmut goebkes

His wheel type device was the most promising looking wheel I stumbled in to.  It really looked like it could work (and apparently it did until the magnets weakened)  If this testimony is true, it leads me to believe that if you really get a wheel to run with magnets only, you will weaken the magnets because you are really drawing power (not just force) from the magnets.

I'm positive there was one more all magment design I saw either here, or linked from here that described the same issue. (depleting magnets)  I think it may have been perendev, as you guessed, but I'm not sure.  I know I saw another, because it struck me after seeing the above one.  I was so impressed by the Goebkes device that I copied the information into my records.  When I saw the same effect in another device it made me form the hypothesis that there is some problem that occurs if you do figure out a way to pull power from mags.

[Liberty]

Here are notes from the first one that made an impression on me (This is not perendev):

CONCLUSION:

This kind of device is interesting, and the principle
is easy to understand and to follow.
In my experiments, my magnets got weak after some
hours of testing and never reached speeds more than
100..150 revolutions/minute. This shows, that much
energy is lost due to eddy currents wich are inducted in the
soft iron and the nickel-plating of the magnets i used.
Maybe also a big loss of energy is caused by my magnets itself,
on memeber of the group tells me that my magnets (NeFeB)
are highly conductive and so they are itself a big reason
to brake the system due to eddy currents.

This the device spins without initial startup for up to 50 seconds.
(I had some longer runs (up to five minutes) but this runs are not
predictable and not safely repeatable.) 40-50 Second runs
without any starting action was the "normal", wich is interesting
enough to think and experiment a little bit more..

Further experiments will show, if ceramic magnets
will do a better job!

greetings
helmut goebkes

His wheel type device was the most promising looking wheel I stumbled in to.  It really looked like it could work (and apparently it did until the magnets weakened)  If this testimony is true, it leads me to believe that if you really get a wheel to run with magnets only, you will weaken the magnets because you are really drawing power (not just force) from the magnets.

I'm positive there was one more all magment design I saw either here, or linked from here that described the same issue. (depleting magnets)  I think it may have been perendev, as you guessed, but I'm not sure.  I know I saw another, because it struck me after seeing the above one.  I was so impressed by the Goebkes device that I copied the information into my records.  When I saw the same effect in another device it made me form the hypothesis that there is some problem that occurs if you do figure out a way to pull power from mags.

Hi Jake,

Just a quick note before I have to leave.  You should also put Steve Kundel's motor in your records, because as far as I know, his magnets are still working in his motor.  I think it depends on how deeply you stress the magnet and of what type you use. 

As far as the "Liberty motor" goes, I ran it for several hours per day and during several different days.  Then took the magnets out and stuck them to the table.  No problem here with demagnetization.  I used standard neo magnets.

Have a good day, I've got to go mow the yard.  Bye.

Liberty