electrolysys with horizontal plates

[Walter Hofmann]

I think I can explain this promising results that Walter Hoffman showed us.

Why visible bubbles are created only at the top of vertical setup and why the production is smaller
when compared with horizontal setup ?

To produce efficient electrolysis it is a must to make +- plates as close as they can be (still not touching each other) in order to lower down resistance of the whole unit at the first place. Since plates must be very close
and if positioned vertical - invisible small bubbles are created on every point of the reaction surface but bubbles
created at very bottom are free to go from left to right plate (which are very close) and have much chance
for recombination back into water cause they have source of free electrons and positively charged ions. (H2O molecule is much stable than H2 and O2).

If horizontal setup is used bubbles (which can only go up) can only ONCE hit (if even that) electrod of opposed polarity and recombine into water or not.

So the path of releasing gas in horizontal setup is much much shorter and has only one homopolar exit making
recombination into water again rarely occuring.

To make horizontal more efficient (more dense) by design I propose this setup (on pic attached).
(even better if made slightly but only slightly concave - to U shaped)

Water in vertical setup comes dirty because of long path of reaction and bipolar environment cause inpurities in water (minerals and etc.) to make large molecules (visible as green redish slime). Cause of that water at the bottom of vertical cell becomes less ocupied with minerals ions which in return lowers conductivity of water... (when reaction is stoped after some long period of inactiviti of the cell some of this molecules are again melted in water and water gets little clearer.)
In horizontal setup complex large molecules can not be created cause reaction path is short and homopolar leaving water visualy clean and at the same state of conduction which is good property for prolonged work of the device and mesh plates uniformly distributes current through the whole its lenght.

As heating is concerned, folks !

Heating in electrolysis occures much only if the density of the current is high. density of the curent is high
if current is high and diamter or thickness is low. So more material (stainless steel) less heat for same current.

best regards !

Igor Knitel

Let's make it horizontal then. Even with common ss plates (not mesh type) results must be better.
If using common ss plates thin plastic sheet is left out.

Hi igor
thanks for the replie, I try pretty much allversions for a setup with plates and my conclusion is absolutly to go with horizontal setup. The comparisson between solid and mesh plates shows defenetly mesh is the maximum, because like you mentioned above the free way for the bubbles to escape is much bigger.
on your picture for the proposed setup I could not realy follow how you mean this ? do you mean a few cells (each 2 plates + and- ) seperated by a plasticsheet?
I will post another vid later what shows the effect or better no effect if more plates in series are add.
greetings
walt

[Walter Hofmann]

Hi all
here is a vid about the comparisson between 1 cell and 3 cells inseries like it shows the 3 cells in series seems to bring even less then the 1 cell, and only the top cell produces bubbles and less then the 1 cell unit which is the one on the right.
If someone like to have some of the SS 316L mesh, I can send it for $ 6/ square feet plus postage.
what I now need to find out how many of the disc I can get in a house filter housing.
It also semms to me that that there is a connection between how much water is actually in the cell and the output. I am not sure jet but tests with measuring the output via stefan s methode with the plastic bottle showed that a cell which contains about 0,5liter water fills a 0,5 liter bottle within 60 seconds and a cell with around 1 liter water makes it in 35 seconds, but I have to test this more.
look at the vid and let me know what you think.
greetings
walt

[wizkycho]

Hi igor
thanks for the replie, I try pretty much allversions for a setup with plates and my conclusion is absolutly to go with horizontal setup. The comparisson between solid and mesh plates shows defenetly mesh is the maximum, because like you mentioned above the free way for the bubbles to escape is much bigger.
on your picture for the proposed setup I could not realy follow how you mean this ? do you mean a few cells (each 2 plates + and- ) seperated by a plasticsheet?
I will post another vid later what shows the effect or better no effect if more plates in series are add.
greetings
walt

Plastic sheet is here to prevent created H2 O2 gas to pass through another + - mesh cell which will result in
recombination back to water. In that way also you don't have to make much distance between two +-mesh and another +-mesh combination and don't have to make upper +-mesh smaller and smaller and in piramid (more +-mesh
cells can be stacked in a given space).
Sheet is distanced from upper mesh plate so bubbles are concentrated beneath that sheet in hompolar environment (close only to one electrode) and are released only at the ends of the sheet not emidiately up to another +-mesh cell.

[wizkycho]

Hi all
here is a vid about the comparisson between 1 cell and 3 cells inseries like it shows the 3 cells in series seems to bring even less then the 1 cell, and only the top cell produces bubbles and less then the 1 cell unit which is the one on the right.
If someone like to have some of the SS 316L mesh, I can send it for $ 6/ square feet plus postage.
what I now need to find out how many of the disc I can get in a house filter housing.
It also semms to me that that there is a connection between how much water is actually in the cell and the output. I am not sure jet but tests with measuring the output via stefan s methode with the plastic bottle showed that a cell which contains about 0,5liter water fills a 0,5 liter bottle within 60 seconds and a cell with around 1 liter water makes it in 35 seconds, but I have to test this more.
look at the vid and let me know what you think.
greetings
walt

- In multi +-mesh cell
It is because bubbles in multi +- mesh cell must not pass through another +-mesh cell (bipolar) where they can catch + or - needed to recombine back to water. This is why the plastic sheet should be here (path for bubbles seems longer (in the center) but this path is only unipolar so recombination is not likely to happen.). There might be allso a difference if upper mesh plate is - or upper mesh plate is +.

- And allso with more water Archimed law acts stronger so bubbles faster goes up leaving surface of electrode free for another to create.

[joule]

Walter:

A couple of lines on what I found during cell research.

1) Measurement of gas is difficult at best. The filling the tube (bottle) method is very inaccurate. Unless you have run the gas through a dryer, you will have significant water vapor. As a cell heats the kinetic energy of the H2O molecules increases and larger amounts of vapor will be present. Using electrolyte will also present some margin of error as some chemical reaction can take place and generate gas other than H2 and O2, albiet small.

2) I found that you want to keep the interaction of the cell ions to a minimum, you don't want then to re-combine and bump into one another as the Enthalpy increases. I was never able in hundreds of hours to get horizontal to produce near vertical.

3) Electrodes that are to close are self defeating, they cause re-combination and heat from the massive number of molecule interactions.

4) Get the gas out of the electrolyte as soon as possible, holding it back by the plastic may allow them to join up and seem like large bubbles, but gas has not increased.

I at last used for production measurement (mass) as an indicator. Weigh starting cell, run gas through dryer, captue and weigh. By subtraction you can get within 10-20%. This will require a scale capable of doing entire cell as removal of the left over water will great a greater error as you can't get it all. To weigh gas will require better scale. I do not suggest you capture a large amount of gas, that is just plain bad for oxyhydrogen.

My work found that this drive to add more plates and more plates is not the way to go. If you are using conventional theory, you are only interested in A/cm2. It seems to a lot of people to get to this point that plates en-mass is the way to go. Electrolyte is part of the answer, yet a cell can be constructed to provide good output and not require large number of plates.

Voltage is critical unless you just don't care about eff%, the thermoneutral voltage is below 1.5V and for 80% eff you will run around 560-580ma/cm2 at around 2.4V.

Keep up the work, it can only get better...