Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?

[ltseung888]

1. Where do those voltage numbers come from? What is the accuracy of your voltage measurement? Have you calibrated your voltage measurements against a known standard? This is absolutely necessary if you are reporting a claim that depends on a few milliVolts difference, as you are here.

2. "Apparent" brightness here is no good as a criterion for several reasons, not the least being observer bias. You absolutely need to have a reliable and accurate _instrumental_ measure of light output, especially if you are making a claim based on "similar" light outputs and voltage levels that differ by a few milliVolts.

I've already given you links for local experts with good test equipment, links for affordable and accurate voltage standards, and so on. Should I now find you a suitable method of measuring light intensity, or can you handle that search yourself?

3. We need to see the schematic for your timer in the black box. Many people have made the error of allowing power from their timer/clock/control electronics to make it through and add power to the system under test. Please show the exact schematic and hookup for your timer so that we can evaluate whether or not it might be also acting as a power supply to the circuit under test.

9 mv / 1250 mv == less than one percent.  A result that is not different from noise, being smaller than the voltage measurement error of your oscilloscope, anyway.

Experoment will last for many days/weeks.  If the difference is 1% per day.  10 days will be 10%.  We can have multiple teams verifying the results.  The cost of DMM and Twin Timer are much lower than DSOs.

[TinselKoala]

Lawrence, you are very difficult to work with. I know that your command of written English is very good. Why, then, do you continually ignore the actual points that I and others make concerning your experimentation?

I did not ask you for a photograph of your instruments. I asked you for some evidence that they are reporting correct values ! You absolutely need a precisely known voltage source with which to calibrate your voltmeters and scopes! Absolute accuracy-- and repeatability-- is indeed important, even if you are merely comparing magnitudes -- you are claiming something extraordinary, and so your "proofs" must rise to the challenge.

I did not ask you for a photograph of your dual timer. I asked you for a schematic !

And you are likely incorrect that longer runs would result in greater percentage difference in the final voltages. You are also incorrect in your statement that accuracy of the timer is not important. And your subjective evaluation of light brightness is worth nothing at all -- please research "observer bias" also known as "experimenter bias" -- you absolutely do need repeatable, accurate and precise instrumental measurements of this parameter.

And you still have not answered the questions concerning the great voltage discrepancy that one of your probe/channel combos showed when reading the calibrator's output. The output should have read around 3.5 v but your scopeshot shows nearly FIVE TIMES that voltage. This calls into question all data obtained with that probe/channel combo, from the very beginning up until the time that you show that the problem is resolved, which you have not yet done, in spite of at least a half dozen requests.

[SeaMonkey]

...you are very difficult to work with.

...Why, then, do you continually ignore...

...I did not ask you for a photograph...

And you still have not answered the questions...

...which you have not yet done, in spite of
at least a half dozen requests.

Is the "age of instant communication" turning
us into a lot of nagging, impatient old hens?

How difficult it must have been back in the
"Old Days" (pre-telegraph/telephone/internet)
when letters between experimenters on opposite
sides of the globe could take weeks or even months
to be delivered.

Are we any better off today or are we deceiving
ourselves when we think so?

[ltseung888]

I am putting the problems related to the DC offset on the Atten aside.  It is very probable that I may have access to a 4-CH Tektronics in the near future.

The focus is on the energy saving aspects with twin timer 10 second ON and 2 minutes OFF.  The experiment continues into day 2.

I do not think high accuracy or expensive equipment is needed in this case.  Poynt99 has a demo board that can easily be ON without the battery for over 10 minutes.  He can confirm that the LED hardly dims in the first 2 minutes.  This is the "requirement" to develop a solution for at least 3 real organizations.

God Bless.

[TinselKoala]

Is the "age of instant communication" turning
us into a lot of nagging, impatient old hens?

How difficult it must have been back in the
"Old Days" (pre-telegraph/telephone/internet)
when letters between experimenters on opposite
sides of the globe could take weeks or even months
to be delivered.

Are we any better off today or are we deceiving
ourselves when we think so?

What I have asked for is nothing more or less than basic requirements to support the claims being made, and would take a dedicated experimenter about half an hour to do.  Voltage standards for calibration are basic. Understanding one's tools is basic. Schematics and/or detailed specifications of apparatus used are basic. Obtaining concurrently valid measurements by using different systems is basic. Calibrating your tools is basic.

Are we better off today? Apparently not, because it is still true that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. However, anyone with the backing can evidently make all sorts of claims and pretend to support them with bad data, incorrectly obtained, while studiously avoiding any actual tests of the claims.

A capacitor can provide a known amount of input energy to the circuit over a known period of time. The output power can be monitored and the output energy can be calculated. The input energy can be compared to the output energy. A comprehensive series of experiments using this method might take a day or two to perform and would add real knowledge. Further, comparing two close brightness levels "by eye" in order to support some kind of overunity or enhanced efficiency claim is just silly. Lawrence has financial backing. Let him buy some proper test kit with it! A suitable light level meter of some kind. A voltage standard for calibration purposes. Let him rent a decent oscilloscope and an integrating power meter from the local test equipment rental company that I found for him. Even a simple paper chart recorder to monitor voltages over a long period of time would be nice to use on this kind of testing.

But instead we are running around HongKong providing fun and entertainment for a discount electronics broker and sending off NON_OU test boards to department secretaries all around the world.

Are we better off today?