Is joule thief circuit gets overunity?

[TinselKoala]

If the "ringing pulse" represents current crossing the 0 ref line, then we must have positive and negative power in the citcuit.  (Input Volotage is all positive.  Output Voltage and Output Current are all positive.)

What does that mean?  How can current flow forwards and backwards in a DC environment?

No, Lawrence, it means the same energy is sloshing back and forth between inductance and capacitance. Yes, it represents a tiny bit of energy changing direction of flow. No, it does not mean "negative power".

Take two buckets. Fill one with water from your well. Now begin pouring the water back and forth between the two buckets. Each time you pour, a tiny bit splashes out, a little evaporates, a bird comes by and drinks some and flies away. Eventually, you are not pouring a full bucket of water back and forth any more, but only a few drops, and finally all the water you started with is gone. So you return to your well (the transistor) and you bring up another bucket and start pouring it back and forth again. Do you wind up with extra water? No, of course you don't, all your water is dissipated into the environment and can't be used for anything. But it makes the birds and plants happy. But your arms surely must be getting tired by now.

You most certainly do not have a "DC environment". You are pulsing inductors at high frequency.

[TinselKoala]

Hi Tinselkoala. My probes are oriented the same as I have shown in the schematic I posted previously. Yellow(Ch.1) is the input voltage waveform, and blue(ch.2) is the input current waveform. The input current waveform should not be inverted. Yes, I have both waveforms vertically set at the vertical center line. I like to set them that way.

Regarding the bandwidth limiting on channel 2, my scope turns this on automatically at low volts per division settings, and I am not able to turn it off. There seems to be some auto routine there that flips this on maybe as the signal gets a certain percentage of noise on it. My input current waveform is starting to get close to the noise level at this input voltage. I don't know what frequency the scope limits the bandwidth to when the BW Limit feature is turned on. The user manual for my scope seems to have been written by a grade four student. The PC interface software that comes with my scope also seems to have been written by the same grade four student. The scope itself however seems at least passable, so far.

Hmm. I've attached your schematic below, along with the schematic that the "rest of us" are using. Please note that your current probe is inverted from that which Lawrence and I are using, and presumably also that which .99 is using. This accounts for your positive readings where we are seeing negative readings. To avoid confusion, I suggest that we all use the same schematic, the same "names" for the probe connection locations, and to make it easy on Lawrence, I suggest that we use the one he has published and is using, with the setup that allows all four scope channels to be connected to the same "ground" reference point.

[ltseung888]

No, Lawrence, it means the same energy is sloshing back and forth between inductance and capacitance. Yes, it represents a tiny bit of energy changing direction of flow. No, it does not mean "negative power".

*** The LED was ON all the time.  Some energy must be used.   Why would a "0.4V or less rechargeable AA battery" last 3 days???  Can there be an alternative explanation?


Take two buckets. Fill one with water from your well. Now begin pouring the water back and forth between the two buckets. Each time you pour, a tiny bit splashes out, a little evaporates, a bird comes by and drinks some and flies away. Eventually, you are not pouring a full bucket of water back and forth any more, but only a few drops, and finally all the water you started with is gone. So you return to your well (the transistor) and you bring up another bucket and start pouring it back and forth again. Do you wind up with extra water? No, of course you don't, all your water is dissipated into the environment and can't be used for anything. But it makes the birds and plants happy. But your arms surely must be getting tired by now.

You most certainly do not have a "DC environment". You are pulsing inductors at high frequency.

We have to examine Board 124 - the one with the timer.  You said in your post that it will NOT last longer than Board 116.  Experiment so far has shown that it not only lasted longer but also brighter.

More research needed.   But if one assumes energy can be brought-in or lead-out, one can explain the experimental results immediately.  Obviously, you may assume that the extra energy comes from the timer power supply.  We need to do experiments to eliminate that.....

Much more to learn and experiment.  I sow seeds.  Others are encouraged to water, fertilize, harvast etc.

[TinselKoala]

We have to examine Board 124 - the one with the timer.  You said in your post that it will NOT last longer than Board 116.  Experiment so far has shown that it not only lasted longer but also brighter.

My prediction was of course based on
1) having the exact same starting energy stored in the sources, which you have not shown and which is very unlikely;
2) being able to quantify and equate the light output in both cases, which you have resisted doing for months now;
3) assuring and showing that it is impossible for any power to be coming from the Timer Switching circuit or other outside sources, something else you have resisted doing for a long time.

More research needed.   But if one assumes energy can be brought-in or lead-out, one can explain the experimental results immediately.  Obviously, you may assume that the extra energy comes from the timer power supply.  We need to do experiments to eliminate that.....

Much more to learn and experiment.  I sow seeds.  Others are encouraged to water, fertilize, harvast etc.

You have wasted a lot of your own time, my time, and the time of hundreds of other people by your false claims based on the poor measurements and interpretations of them. If you had spent some time at the very beginning, to understand your instruments and how to use them, you might have been able to save a lot of this time and effort. It might not matter to YOU how other people waste their time, and I personally do this for my own edification and amusement so my own time isn't wasted -- and I am getting exactly what I expected from this program. But you have undoubtedly planted false hopes in some other people, and they have wasted their time and effort watering and fertilizing YOUR garden, and are harvesting nothing but frustration from it.

I've asked you several times before: You have distributed many boards, maybe over a hundred. Where are the reports from the testers to whom you have sent these boards? We have only .99's report... his _negative_ report that indicates that your measurements of that board were faulty. Where are the reports from all the other testers? Have you gotten any responses at all, negative or positive?

[Void]

If the "ringing pulse" represents current crossing the 0 ref line, then we must have positive
and negative power in the circuit.  (Input Volotage is all positive.  Output Voltage and Output
Current are all positive.)
What does that mean?  How can current flow forwards and backwards in a DC environment?
*** Look at the theoretical explanation again.  If there is a "hidden" pulsing source,
the above is possible.  That is Lead-out energy.  So long as there is crossing of the 0 reference line
- either the main Current or the spikes, there is lead-out energy.  Amen.
*** It is a matter of producing the circuit to achieve this crossing the 0 ref line behavior. 
The Zhou Board is only one example.

No, Lawrence, it means the same energy is sloshing back and forth between inductance and capacitance. Yes, it represents a tiny bit of energy changing direction of flow. No, it does not mean "negative power".

Take two buckets. Fill one with water from your well. Now begin pouring the water back and forth between the two buckets. Each time you pour, a tiny bit splashes out, a little evaporates, a bird comes by and drinks some and flies away. Eventually, you are not pouring a full bucket of water back and forth any more, but only a few drops, and finally all the water you started with is gone. So you return to your well (the transistor) and you bring up another bucket and start pouring it back and forth again. Do you wind up with extra water? No, of course you don't, all your water is dissipated into the environment and can't be used for anything. But it makes the birds and plants happy. But your arms surely must be getting tired by now.

You most certainly do not have a "DC environment". You are pulsing inductors at high frequency.

I would say I am not convinced that those many negative swings seen in Lawrence's input current waveforms do not indicate current flowing back to the power source during the negative swings. (As an aside, keep in mind that Lawrence has his ch. 2 probe oriented such that his current waveform is inverted on his scope display.) However, it is not established if Lawrence has his DC offset on his scope channels completely zeroed out now, as Lawrence didn't indicate if he tested the DC offset by setting to x1, 2mV/div, DC, and grounding the scope probe tips to the probe ground clips to view the DC offset, as I suggested to him in a previous post, so there could be some DC offset in Lawrence's current waveforms. However, if the DC offset is minimal, then his input current waveforms do seem to show about as many negative swings as positive swings, although they are damped, which if shown correctly should average out to a very low current draw overall. On the other hand, if there is some DC offset there that is skewing Lawrence's input current waveforms, then maybe the input current waveforms are actually much more positively offset than is indicated in Lawrence's scope shots. Once I receive those test boards from Lawrence, I can confirm if my measurements are similar to what Lawrence is showing or not. I will make sure to check for any DC offset on both channels before making any measurements.