Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?

[mondrasek]

I followed along with Fletcher's material from the Bessler wheel site,  until he got to the bouyant weight added to the fluid. It seemed to me that the buoyant weight would have an effect on the balance/weighting of the fluid. I was wrong. I balanced a 4 gallon pot, 3/4 filled with water, on a 3/4" nut (tippy) and pushed a tall (empty) one gallon pitcher down, and around in the pot slowly. It had no effect on the balance of the pot.

Yes, but you used a buoyant weight, didn't you?  Your experiment used a weight that was balanced by a displacement of the fluid, causing a rise in the water level in the pot.  Fletcher's wheel design does not allow for displacement, only weight transfer.  So pressure is created in the fluid, but no buoyancy "absorbs" the mass.  The weight of the "ball" is not evenly distributed throughout the fluid.  In the POP1.gif, the correct answer is on the right side, IMHO.

M.

[minnie]

Hi,
   with Fletcher's glass of water on scales with a finger dipped in experiment give us a potential gain or does it
work out to be an exact balance?
                                                   John.

[fletcher]

@ All ..

Everybody is very nearly right in their interpretation of my concept.

As Mondrasek says, it is a symmetrical system therefore it is a flywheel able to store momentum & KE.

No, there is no appreciable mass movement in a F x D [work done joules] sense - it stays fairly well symmetrical with its CoM [as we describe it] located at the Center of Rotation [CoR].

Non compressible fluids [liquids] under these sorts of pressure maintain uniform distribution of mass & their volume does not change [appreciably], aka density is constant - that means there is no lowering of system CoM & loss of PE, aka symmetrical.

When a force is applied to a contained fluid it builds pressure in that fluid - in hydrostatics that means an increase in the energy density of the liquid i.e. energy per unit volume - the reason that liquid density [& volume] remains constant [at non extreme pressures] is varied but I think of it like this - liquid molecules are tightly packed into a volume with no spaces between them, but they are able to move in all directions [fluids are isotropic] - so when they are squeezed by applying a force they can't easily move closer together - pressure creates heat & that energy must be radiated into the environment - so the radiation pressure exactly equals the forces trying to push molecules closer together [like the sun thermonuclear system in equilibrium] & so we have equilibrium of forces.

If the application of a mass weight force increases pressure in the liquid [I say liquid because its easier to increase PSI than compressing gases for experimental purposes] & this increases the liquids energy density then some things become apparent - first off, the liquid sealed piston with mass on top must be in equilibrium of forces with the pressure on the piston face, so the buoyant force equals the mass weight force - this is in synchronicity because the greater the mass the higher the pressure etc [self adjusting to find equilibrium of forces] - the second thing is that if the increase in liquid pressure has increased the liquids energy density per unit volume [volume didn't change] then effectively the mass's PE is absorbed into the liquids increased energy density - I don't have a better term for it at the minute but it conveys an idea.

Next, this concept is one about redirection of forces on one side of a pivot - Newton's Laws of equal & opposite reactions might have an exception i.e. equal force but not always opposite.

I am attempting to redirect the ascending side [left side] mass's weight force into the liquid medium at the axle due a special type of buoyancy which is just an extension of the hydrostatic paradox of which Archimedes paradox is an example.

So, if forces can be redirected into the fluid medium [MUST BE UNDER PRESSURE FROM THAT MASS] then the rotary format will be given an impulse force so that it gains momentum & KE - when not receiving that impulse force because it is effectively symmetrical it coasts like a flywheel - so you have a flywheel that self accelerates thru periodic & repeating force impulse.

The crux is to find a verifiable experiment to prove that a mass/piston analogy pressurizing an enclosed fluid acts & behaves just like a buoyancy force weight force equilibrium as per Archimedes volume displacement method.


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.. for Red .. I added the bell housing compression chamber & gas bags etc into the concept presented because some people have a hard time grasping that pressure can be built in a contained liquid without the piston actually moving [ f x d ] - it was the same reason for pictorial purposes that I show a small air gap by each end mass - it's more familiar.

Additionally, whilst liquids maintain their volume under temperature change, metal casings/containers etc do not - they have different thermal expansion rates etc - I could add alcohol [methanol & ethanol etc], to say water, to stop it freezing & expanding & blowing the system I could also just be prudent & allow for naturally occurring flexing & small changes that might lock things up otherwise, hence the compression/expansion chamber - btw this could be located anywhere almost providing they are symmetrically balanced around the CoR.

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[Red_Sunset]

@ All ..
Everybody is very nearly right in their interpretation of my concept.
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.. for Red .. I added the     ............................

Hi Fletcher,

An interesting approach, so let me summarize my unbiased understanding and conclusion from a critical angle.  If you feel different, don't hesitate to state you counter response
Presented
We have an enclosed liquid that has no room to spare with 2 weighted floats in opposing positions (one floats, other does not & visa versa).  For the buoyancy to assert itself, a certain amount of compressibility must be present in the liquid to allow a certain amount of submersion (amount of compressibility is allowed by a certain amount of dissolved air in the liquid and a practical expansion diaphragm at the center of the see/saw).  The massed buoyancy intrusion will create a pressure in the liquid that will force the other mass to "out position".  The different positions of the mass floats will change the balance of liquid in the see/saw every time near the horizontal position.
Static Analysis
The shown "massed float buoyancy" from my view has not much to do with buoyancy. No matter how you take it, the vertical mass/float movement is a direct result of gravity. The liquid is presenting an opposing counter force because it has nowhere to expand to.  You call it a buoyancy if its limits the sink travel, but I see it as a direct gravity force. The limit of how much the float mass can penetrate the liquid is determined by float/mass gravity weight and counter pressure produced by the compressibility of the confined liquid (this also includes the force required to position the other mass float outward and the vacated space this produces)
When the liquid now moves to the right, there is some energy applied by gravity to move the liquid from left to right instigated by the 2 mass float movements (you could say the 2 mass/float plungers are akin to 2 hydraulic pistons  in series with a liquid in between).
Having now more liquid mass on the right side, the see-saw will start to tilt to the right and the turn cycle begins. At the end of 90dgr movement, max. gravity force will re-assert itself and should restart the cycle but with mass1 & 2 locations reversed
Dynamic Analysis
Once the rotation starts, the picture changes. The centrifugal force on the liquid is your "reaction force".  It will apply a force on the liquid from the center pivot outwards in both arms. It sure will do its best to nullify this horizontal liquid movement that originates in the left arm.  This also means that this reaction force will prevent the "sinking" of the left mass/float, because of the pressure increase in the outer extremity. (pressure is no longer equal everywhere)
In the right arm, when rotating, the water movement/pressure from the left is not needed, because the centrifugal force has taken over and will try to keep the mass/float in the "out" position for as long it can.
Conclusion
As with any of the Bessler type devices,  the centrifugal force is your counter force of the symmetry and in the end will prevent anything more than a very slow movement with a weak force. You can call it a marginal condition = slow static condition.
Why? Because when you look at the problem in a singular dimension, a singular frame reference, in this view, all relationships are referenced to each other (the reason for symmetry, the reason for Seamus existence).
I feel in a way sorry for this conclusion, I always try to be as objective as possible. I am open to be refuted with a good counter argument, no hard feelings

Solution
When thinking in a multi dimension, multiple frames, multiple movies on the same screen.  A Einstein type time view, akin to the neighbor train in the station departing. Here the relationship in one dimension does not reference the other dimensional frames for its existence.  Because of that, the symmetry is broken. 
Ask the only person who knows but has been called too many bad names under the red sun on this site, akin to being FRIED to a sizzle for trying to tell everybody,  believe me, he got the answer !

Ask Wayne Travis  !!,  he will tell you how it is done !!   

Regards, Michel

[minnie]

Hi Fletcher,
                 love the way you describe things. I'm not a scientist, so you'll have to forgive me for some of my questions.
I enjoyed the beaker and glass of water and I think I've got it. In a way is it like having a toy boat with a sail and moving
it with a hand held fan, then putting the fan onto the boat?I did this experiment, I cut my finger off and suspended it from
the rim of the glass, either way, immersed or not of course it weighed the same. The overall result was that I've lost a
few grams!
        In your proposed device I take it that the pistons do "actually move", because in your original description it all
seemed to make sense, now I'm  not so sure.
                                                                        John.