Big try at gravity wheel

[MarkE]

Mark,
If I remember correctly, you were involved in discussions with Wayne in 2011-2012 ?
I don't exactly remember the name of the forum. So I would guess you are familiar with the ZED
Is that correct?
Red_Sunset

Red_Sunset that would have been PESN in 2012.  PESN linked I think four of the five Tom Miller aquarium you tube videos and a couple of articles.  I think that PESN since cleared out all of the comments when they changed over to Disqus. 

I don't specifically recall Wayne Travis identifying himself posting at PESN.  HER was represented by several vociferous proponents including Tom Miller who posted for some time there.  The double speak surrounding the alleged but nonexistent "Travis Effect" made for some interesting conversation.

Webby's description and the two pages of the 40 page guide minnie told me how to find tell the same story.  There is nothing in there that offers any chance of some "asymmetry" or cheat.  Water and weights get lifted and dropped, some air gets compressed and expanded.  It's all very ordinary stuff.  But, if you or anyone else has some evidence to offer of something extraordinary, then I am all ears.

BTW I will be traveling the rest of the week.  It will take me longer than usual to respond to any messages.

[Red_Sunset]

.................................... The machine can be simplified down to:  one hydraulic jack polluted by an air bubble that applies pressure to a water vessel that supports a float.  Hydraulic jacks rigorously conform to CoE as do floats.  Energy goes into changing the lifted height of the various constituent parts including water and the riser masses, and the weight on top.  In addition, energy goes into compressing air.  The act of compressing the air leads to heating losses as anyone who has ever used a bicycle tire pump can attest.  At the end of the day, this device performs more or less as a lever where the arm bends significantly under load.

That would be a fair deduction Red - but your point of making it elludes me.
Isn't the ideal to set aside prejudices [or pseudonyms] & explore thought experiments & theory & experiments to find the path to OU, or conversely to find the 'show stopper' that returns our feet to earthly realms [rhetorical] - I welcome any intelligent & well crafted input that pits 'ingenuity against entropy' - so far entropy has the upper hand but that could change with one mechanical device or coherent theory which could be just a thought away, if only we could tease it out. 

MarkE, You are correct to the simplification, but the simplicity of what was said in previous posts has not sunken yet to see the point of essence in this hydraulic jack, for accuracy sake, it is a Hydro Jack.  With Wayne's base configuration, it is mandatory to have a dual balance system. One by itself will not give you any efficient or useable output due to energy recovery limitations. 

Fletcher,
I hope this summary helps, this should be enough to trigger an inquiring mind.
Don't assume this is the whole story

**  Can we agree that if we can asymmetry between up-stroke & Dwn-stroke, we could under the right conditions have excess leftover energy in a cycle ?

** If YES, then our focus will be on creating that symmetry imbalance.

A preferred imbalance is to get more out than we put in.  So if we can lift weight (add PE) and then recover this PE at a higher rate.
In a hydro system (buoyancy) & Hydraulics, force is developed by means of pressure on a target surface.

So what we are dealing with is a controlled relationship of pressure verses lift area.
Force= pressure x area

So for asymmetry we need,
>> up stroke >>   Large area x pressure= output is large lift force
>> down stroke >> Small area x pressure= output is high pressure

Energy is determined by:   Force over distance.
Force is in its physical property is determined by AREA size (and then Pressure)
Distance in its physical property is determined by Volume (proportionate to the area)

OUTPUT Energy is therefore >> AREA X PRESSURE X DISTANCE 
      with a weight loaded >>  WEIGHT X DISTANCE
INPUT Energy is therefore  >>  VOLUME X PRESSURE

So the energy output to input direct relationships are "Distance", "Volume", "Area"
Pressure (overall)  is a common input and output during descend.

For asymmetry we need to break some direct symmetrical relationships, in Wayne's Zed "Distance" and "Volume" are common between IN & Output.  The POD area volume is the only input volume and rise distance of the pod and other lift surfaces are the same since they are all interconnected.
The overall pressure is made up by the sub-level pressure of each layer. The variables are the different lift area's which we can influence by modification of the layering of the sub-level pressures, in order to change the lift characteristics of the jack/lever. 

So what is left >>  Area

If we can lift a weight to a predetermined  height with a given volume of fluid at a certain pressure, we need to input a certain amount of energy  .  We do the lift with the largest lift area possible.
Energy spent:   Volume x Pressure
PE acquired :  weight x height   =  area1 x pressure x height

Now, to descend we have the ability to reduce the lift area (at a very low cost, IP)
Let say, we do the descend with an area reduced by 1/3.  Now in order to hold the same weight on top of the jack, the pressure would increase proportionally to the reduction in area.  So or effective energy increase in the output volume returned is increased by 33%.
Energy output:  Volume x (Pressure + 33%)
PE released :  weight x height = =  area2 (-33%)   x pressure2 (+33%) x height
**  Remember that the volume of height parameters have not changed.  In a traditional symmetrical example, the change of lift area would automatically change the volume and/or height. This is a key point !

Unique details of the Jack
1..  Limited amount of water use (reason for the aquarium demo's), reduces cost
2..  Mufti-layered lift area's of different sizes (total lift area is an aggregate of different area's and pressures)
3..  Limited fixed lift distance
4..  Layers are liquid pre-provisoned

Regards, Red_Sunset

[Red_Sunset]

Red_Sunset that would have been PESN in 2012.  PESN linked I think four of the five Tom Miller aquarium you tube videos and a couple of articles.  I think that PESN since cleared out all of the comments when they changed over to Disqus.  .................................................................................
  There is nothing in there that offers any chance of some "asymmetry" or cheat.  Water and weights get lifted and dropped, some air gets compressed and expanded.  It's all very ordinary stuff.  But, if you or anyone else has some evidence to offer of something extraordinary, then I am all ears......................................

Hi MarkE.
yes, I think that is the forum.
About "nothing there" , I guess like "one's trash" is someone else his "treasure"
or like the picture in which we can all see different images.
In the past I have also been looking for things that were right in front of my eyes without seeing them.
It is a mindset to connect dots.......
Red_Sunset

[MarkE]

MarkE, You are correct to the simplification, but the simplicity of what was said in previous posts has not sunken yet to see the point of essence in this hydraulic jack, for accuracy sake, it is a Hydro Jack.  With Wayne's base configuration, it is mandatory to have a dual balance system. One by itself will not give you any efficient or useable output. 

Red_Sunset, one can lift and drop things all day long hoping that they will either produce more work when dropped or take less work when lifted up the nth time than the first.  Experience shows that anyone doing so is doomed to grave disappointment.

Fletcher,
I hope this summary helps, this should be enough to trigger an inquiring mind.
Don't assume this is the whole story

**  Can we agree that if we can asymmetry between up-stroke & Dwn-stroke, we could under the right conditions have excess leftover energy in a cycle ?

You are committing the fallacy of begging the question.  The question presumes that the cost is less than the benefit.

** If YES, then our focus will on creating that symmetry imbalance.

A preferred imbalance is to get more out than we put in.  So if we can lift weight (add PE) and then recover this PE at a higher rate.

What HER claims to gain is energy.  Slipping in rate yields power.  Power is not conservative, and easily manipulated.  Altering power does not yield the desired free energy.

In a hydro system (effective buoyancy) & Hydraulics, force is developed by means of pressure on a target surface.

So what we are dealing with is a controlled relationship of pressure verses lift area.

Now you are slipping in force.  Force like power is not conserved, is easily manipulated, but does not yield free energy.

Force= pressure x area

So for asymmetry we need,
>> up stroke >>   Large area x pressure= output is large lift force
>> down stroke >> Small area x pressure= output is high pressure

For energy asymmetry that results in a gain you need:  Integral( F*ds )out > Integral( F*ds ) in.

Energy is determined by:   Force over distance.

Energy is the integral of F*ds.

Force is in its physical property is determined by AREA size (and then Pressure)
Distance in its physical property is determined by Volume (proportionate to the area)

OUTPUT Energy is therefore >> AREA X PRESSURE X DISTANCE 
      with a weight loaded >>  WEIGHT X DISTANCE
INPUT Energy is therefore  >>  VOLUME X PRESSURE

Those simplifications are only true if pressure and volume are constant.  Otherwise you have to perform the integrals.  If you have variable force and/or pressure and use those formulas that only apply to constant force and pressure you will calculate an invalid result.

So the energy output to input direct relationships are "Distance", "Volume", "Area"
Pressure (overall)  is a common input and output during descend.

Again, you are applying a generalization that is not true.  The gas compresses under the changing pressure.  You are dooming yourself to "optimism by miscalculation".

For asymmetry we need to break some direct symmetrical relationships, in Wayne's Zed "Distance" and "Volume" are common between IN & Output.  The POD area volume is the only input volume and rise distance of the pod and other lift surfaces are the same since they are all interconnected.
The overall pressure is made up by the sub-level pressure of each layer. The variables are the different lift area's which we can influence by modification of the layering of the sub-level pressures, in order to change the lift characteristics of the jack/lever. 

So what is left >>  Area

If we can lift a weight to a predetermined  height with a given volume of fluid at a certain pressure, we need to input a certain amount of energy  .  We do the lift with the largest lift area possible.
Energy spent:   Volume x Pressure
PE acquired :  weight x height   =  area1 x pressure x height

No, energy spent, and PE acquired are both the respective integrals of F*ds in both cases.  Weight is easy to determine.  GMm is for all intent and purpose constant, so you can multiply change in height by weight to find the PE change from lifting or lowering a weight.  If you want to find the difference in energy for the pressure vessel you can subtract the static starting pressure and gas volume from the static ending pressure and gas volume.

Now, to descend we have the ability to reduce the lift area (at a very low cost, IP)
Let say, we do the descend with an area reduced by 1/3.  Now in order to hold the same weight on top of the jack, the pressure would increase proportionally to the reduction in area.  So or effective energy increase in the output volume returned is increased by 33%.
Energy output:  Volume x (Pressure + 33%)
PE released :  weight x height = =  area2 (-33%)   x pressure2 (+33%) x height
**  Remember that the volume of height parameters have not changed.  In a traditional symmetrical example, the change of lift area would automatically change the volume and/or height. This is a key point !

Sadly, the key point seems to be that if one performs the wrong calculations, one can get all kinds of crazy answers, some that might even appear attractive.

Unique details of the Jack
1..  Limited amount of water use (reason for the aquarium demo's), reduces cost

Are we back to the absolute fail to show any new principle or means of energy gain aquarium videos?  Really:  Lifting and dropping a weight inside a surrounding fluid only subtracts the weight of the displaced fluid volume from the operations.  Since that added or subtracted force appears identically in the F*ds integral for work performed and the F*ds integral for work extracted, it identically cancels out.

2..  Mufti-layered lift area's of different sizes (total lift area is an aggregate of different area's and pressures)

Changing the force changes the displacement.  Levers, pulleys, gears, inclined planes, and hydraulic pistons all trade force for distance.  Increase force by leveraging any of these mechanisms and the distance over which one must apply the reduced force increases identically by the ratio of increased force to reduced force.  Ignoring losses:  Integral(F*ds) in = Integral (F*ds) out

3..  Limited fixed lift distance 

Limits restrict the distance over which useful work can be performed or extracted.  They do not change the F*ds integral that defines the work in the first place.

4..  Layers are liquid pre-provisoned 

This only creates an accounting issue.

Regards, Red_Sunset

If you are going to try and convince anyone who understands physics that a gain is possible then you will need to:  Stop substituting power and force for energy, and perform the energy calculations correctly.  Your only alternative is to produce a working machine.  HER has not been able to do that in over five years.  2000 years of pesky hydrostatic physics explain why. 

[MarkE]

Hi MarkE.
yes, I think that is the forum.
About "nothing there" , I guess like "one's trash" is someone else his "treasure"
or like the picture in which we can all see different images.
In the past I have also been looking for things that were right in front of my eyes without seeing them.
It is a mindset to connect dots.......
Red_Sunset

Red_Sunset you are anyone else who thinks they've found the proverbial pony are absolutely encouraged to show that fine equine off.  Staring at an empty space and expounding upon the exquisite animal that exists only in the imagination does not create a real living specimen.  It is not encouraging that you compare forces as though they represent energies.