Big try at gravity wheel

[TinselKoala]

@fletcher: That is a wonderful description of what's going on in the video. Thanks for your analysis, you put it much better than I could have done.

[fletcher]

You're more than welcome TK - without your experiments & video's [which require effort] we'd have nothing concrete to discuss.

I'm anticipating that Webby & Red will suggest that the accumulator [with check valves] has a part to play ?! - if that is the case then we get into the realms of thermodynamics & that the energy required to compress a gas can not be less than the energy liberated to do work from that pressurization process - unless you invoke the Carnot Cycle & adiabatic warming & isothermal cooling legs drawing & taking energy from the ambient environment - and if so, then you need a constant heat sink - just thoughts ! - perhaps they have a far simpler observation ?

[mondrasek]

Discussing the cylinders on top of the riser stack that was shown as a possible performance enhancement is really not possible at this point webby1.  That concept can help with a complete dual ZED set up, but has no benefit on TKs experiment, of course.

FWIW, the concept behind the dual ZED where the cylinders should assist comes down to these areas of the cycle:

When one ZED has its risers moving upwards, it is performing its "power stroke."  It is beneficial to add water to the outer annulus, thereby increasing the buoyant force of the outer riser to maximize the power during this part of the cycle.

When that same ZED's risers are moving downwards it is recycling internal pressure by transferring some of that pressure to the other ZED.  It is beneficial to increase the weight on the risers to increase the pressure that can be transferred during this part of the cycle.

The cylinders in the animation appeared to be accomplishing these two goals.  To what affect, who knows?

M.

[fletcher]

I understand what TK was showing and what Fletcher is saying.

The heavier float sinks and raises the water level until the system reaches balance, the lighter float raises and lowers the water level until the system reaches balance.

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Here is the thing from what I noticed while playing with TBZED, when the lift happens more "stuff" needs to be put into the system, the string can only move so far, if you remember back to that analogy for the motion of the air and water train that moves within the system, that string is being added from one end and this is a big limit.  When the rams take the water from the riser while it is going up and add it to the water on the outside of the riser it is adding the string into the system from the other end.  A low pressure low cost add that might be able to improve the efficiency.

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If the float in the vid were not allowed to move up when the water is transferred from the top of the float into the water, what force is there that WAS countered by the weight of the water on the float, and does the water raise up a little higher until the float is released.

So the vid should be covering the non change in water while the float is going up while the rams are pushing the water out, the water will at least stay the same height while the float is going up when the rams push the water out,, other wise that level will go down,, correct?

Thanks for your observations Webby ..

If we first stick with TK's vid experiment - I think we'd all agree that if his apparatus were plumbed in a way that allowed a flick of a switch [& a pump instead of rams, & assuming 100% electrical & pump efficiency] then water could be transferred in either direction at will - we can assume that there is no net energy loss from this transfer process - we lift it up, we let it down & recover Ke etc - we'd also probably agree that if this were not an interrupted process but continuous then since water always finds its lowest level [the position of least Pe] then we would see the datum level remain constant at all times [we have to assume the plumbing & pump contain a constant volume of fluid], as we were simply exchanging one volume packet for another.

Now lets address the situation where the float is locked down, & released to rise later [presumably to do work in the process] - first, since the float is locked at its initial position when we flick the pump switch the transfer volume has to come from somewhere - it must come from the fluid surrounding the float - the outer annular volumes & height will not rise because we are taking an equal volume in the same time from beneath the float - status quo - so no extra lift force to be had because the annular levels did not rise.

Ok, now let's introduce an accumulator i.e. we interrupt the fluid flow into packets that we control the timing of delivery to the system - first, we attempt to pull volume from beneath the float [which is locked in position] - if its sealed from the annular rings water then we have a problem - the pump will work hard [using energy] trying to extract water to the accumulator - at the same time the accumulator shunts water to the annular rings increasing the head & by default the lift force of the float.

Now we unlock the fixed in position float & release it - it wants to rocket upwards because of the pressure differential between top & bottom of float - but to move upwards it unseals the annular rings from the water below - the height of water in the annular rings drops [is sucked] into the partially evacuated storage beneath the float & the annular ring water height drops fast.

But, unless we use the accumulator as a volume buffer, we can not maintain any force advantage because our pumped in volume will be the same volume beneath & to the sides of the float that is taken out - so we have a large artificially produced lift force that can only do work over a very short distance - that's because without the flow interruption of the accumulator water storage volume is directly traded for volume.

And if we have a pre-charge pressure then we have to input energy to pressurize the accumulator & then to be self-sustaining it would have to replenish that pressure each cycle, requiring energy input - seems zero sum game at best, unless you or Red can put your finger precisely on the mechanism that allows otherwise to happen.

Just my take on things at the minute - that may change with more information.

[Red_Sunset]

    Sunset,
              Who's the one besotted with Travis anyway?
                                John.

John,

I love to pick up a cause for the underdog.
I never can identify with vultures

Red_Sunset