New generator patent using environment temperature to generate power

[profitis]

@forest,the number of arrangements are almost infinite,the bottom line is a mirror is in fact a maxwell demon,in the dark,in the light,in a isothermal box,outside a isothermal box,evrywhere,anywhere.it can pump heat uphill for no expense.thats what makes it different from most heat pumps.

[MileHigh]

Magluvin:

"Using the interwoven winding technique will give you a coil with marginally different characteristics from a similar coil that is conventionally wound, and that's about it."

This is not true. We went over this, in the other thread.
Say we wind 2 coils. Both are 2 turns. One might say well, ok, 2 normal coils. But they are both bifi and each turn will have 50% of the input voltage across each turn, of which is the definition and point of the coils described in Tesla's pat.

Yes we covered this on the other thread.  If you start with a minuscule capacitance in a regular coil and then do an equivalent bifilar coil with more capacitance and inter-winding voltage potential, chances are the larger capacitance and associated energy is still going to be minuscule in comparison to the inductance.  Therefore unless you are working at higher frequencies the inductance will dominate and the coil will behave like an ordinary coil.  Adding more turns to get more capacitance won't get you anything because the inductance will increase much faster than the capacitance.  And of course the capacitance is transient and only exists at higher frequencies.  We can expect that in pulse motor applications the behaviour will be essentially identical, which you also stated.

So that's what this two-terminal electrical device looks like.  You can do a sine wave frequency sweep on it and measure the amplitude and phase response of it if you set up something like a parallel LC filter tester circuit.  If you build one and get a lower resonant frequency, then what?  What is your objective with the hypothetical build?  This is of course related to the argument about the practical applications for this device.  If you want to build one just for the sake of building one, well then good luck.

What ever the capacitance is between each turn, same for both coils, there is a 500% difference in voltage between adjacent turns in the bifi vs the regular coil. I dont think this is a marginal difference between the 2 coils. I believe it is a 'very' noticeable difference, if one looks at the characteristics in the proper manor. Will get to that later.

That sounds like you could do some good comparative tests between the two types of coils.  How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep.  So you get a resonant frequency in the SBC coil that is lower than the regular coil suggesting higher internal capacitance.  Of course other people have done this and shared their results confirming this.  Okay, that's fine and dandy but we were expecting that, right?  We know the formula for calculating the resonant frequency or an LC resonator.  So did we learn anything new here?  I am not so sure that we did.

But it does state that the more turns the better compared to a regular coil.

Better for what?

The advantages will be seen soon enough.

What advantages specifically are you talking about or perhaps speculating on?

See I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I encourage people to experiment, but much better to experiment with a plan of attack or to test a hypothesis.

Jbignes5 is convinced and wants you to believe that the Tesla SBC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and it has a myriad of wonderful applications that it is perfectly suited for.  He also suggests that you might be able to get over unity from it.  Keep in mind that he is not comfortable with talking about electronics and you should factor that in.

I am saying it's possible that the SBC was designed by Tesla for lab experiments because he could not source high-voltage capacitors because they didn't exist at the time.  He may have wanted to use it as a resonator for temporary storage or to resonate and radiate the stored energy as EM waves.  He may have just wanted it to experiment with basic AC circuits and used it as a filter in a circuit.  The moment that HV capacitors became available he may have never thought about the SBC again.  I am just speculating.

MileHigh

[Magluvin]

Magluvin:

Yes we covered this on the other thread.  If you start with a minuscule capacitance in a regular coil and then do an equivalent bifilar coil with more capacitance and inter-winding voltage potential, chances are the larger capacitance and associated energy is still going to be minuscule in comparison to the inductance.  Therefore unless you are working at higher frequencies the inductance will dominate and the coil will behave like an ordinary coil.  Adding more turns to get more capacitance won't get you anything because the inductance will increase much faster than the capacitance.  And of course the capacitance is transient and only exists at higher frequencies.  We can expect that in pulse motor applications the behaviour will be essentially identical, which you also stated.

So that's what this two-terminal electrical device looks like.  You can do a sine wave frequency sweep on it and measure the amplitude and phase response of it if you set up something like a parallel LC filter tester circuit.  If you build one and get a lower resonant frequency, then what?  What is your objective with the hypothetical build?  This is of course related to the argument about the practical applications for this device.  If you want to build one just for the sake of building one, well then good luck.

That sounds like you could do some good comparative tests between the two types of coils.  How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep.  So you get a resonant frequency in the SBC coil that is lower than the regular coil suggesting higher internal capacitance.  Of course other people have done this and shared their results confirming this.  Okay, that's fine and dandy but we were expecting that, right?  We know the formula for calculating the resonant frequency or an LC resonator.  So did we learn anything new here?  I am not so sure that we did.

Better for what?

What advantages specifically are you talking about or perhaps speculating on?

See I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.  I encourage people to experiment, but much better to experiment with a plan of attack or to test a hypothesis.

Jbignes5 is convinced and wants you to believe that the Tesla SBC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and it has a myriad of wonderful applications that it is perfectly suited for.  He also suggests that you might be able to get over unity from it.  Keep in mind that he is not comfortable with talking about electronics and you should factor that in.

I am saying it's possible that the SBC was designed by Tesla for lab experiments because he could not source high-voltage capacitors because they didn't exist at the time.  He may have wanted to use it as a resonator for temporary storage or to resonate and radiate the stored energy as EM waves.  He may have just wanted it to experiment with basic AC circuits and used it as a filter in a circuit.  The moment that HV capacitors became available he may have never thought about the SBC again.  I am just speculating.

MileHigh

"Yes we covered this on the other thread.  If you start with a minuscule capacitance in a regular coil and then do an equivalent bifilar coil with more capacitance and inter-winding voltage potential, chances are the larger capacitance and associated energy is still going to be minuscule in comparison to the inductance."

One of the problems with the capacitance between adjacent windings of a normal coil is that from one measuring point to the other, there is only a very short piece of wire, 1 turn of the winding, and it is nearly impossible to get any potential difference in reference to the coils input between those two measuring points. The bifi doesnt have that problem as every other turn is half a coil away electrically from the next. This is how the potential difference between turns can have half of the inputs voltage potential between turns, substantially increasing the capacitive value of the coil.

In my previous post that you are quoting from here, you dont seem to be responding to what is said about the difference between bifi and regular wound coils when the number of turns is increased. But anyways...

Have you ever charged a 1uf cap to 1v and discharged it to some metallic item and taken notice how much spark or arcing that would occur?  Then charge that 1uf cap to 250v DC and discharge it. Is the spark any larger or even any louder? Is there more energy in the 250v charge than there is in the 1v charge? There is a big difference in my experience. The 1v 'snap' and my cat wont even turn an ear. But the 250v shmack might get her 6 inches off the floor. lol  Its true. 

The difference between the 2 voltages is 2500%.  And the parts of my post you neglected to reply on explain percent levels up to 60,000% difference. Not beating on you here but I think those are important and very significant numbers while we are having this conversation.



"How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep."

Well, not if Im in the realm of near 100,000 turns of 42awg wire and more than 1 uf of capacitance. Try this. Calculate the value of capacitor needed across a 60 Henry coil that would bring the LC into resonance at 60hz.  Now thats a tiny, seemingly insignificant value of capacitance for such freq. In the low nanofarad range. Near 100nf if I remember correctly. So in 'reality' , there is nothing high freq about 60hz, is there? Now replace that 100nf cap with a 1uf cap. What would our operating freq be then? Pretty much subsonic.  So maybe we can ditch the fact that we are only limited to high freq operation, as long as we have large enough bifi inductance in our motors.



"That sounds like you could do some good comparative tests between the two types of coils.  How much difference between the two and under what kinds of test situations?  You might find real differences with a higher frequency sweep."

Again, my aim is to get the freq operation of the bifi very low. We are not restricted to high freq operation as you suggest.



"We know the formula for calculating the resonant frequency or an LC resonator.  So did we learn anything new here?  I am not so sure that we did."

Yes we do and yes we did.  A 60 henry coil with a 100nf cap can ring near 60hz.



"Better for what?"

Better for reducing self inductance of the coil during the pulse of the motor coil. The way I see it, if we want to use high inductance coils in our pulse motors, more than likely the rise time of the coil is going to be slow, limiting the max potential of its field strength within the time allotment of on time of the switch. Depending on the speed of the motor and switching of course. So by 'neutralizing' the self inductance of a very high inductance coil, we eliminate rise time in the coil. The coil will produce max field much faster than a regular coil, giving a sharper pulse than a normal coil of similar inductance and be able to shorten the on time of the switch being we dont have to wait for the field to build like a normal coil.

Having the capacitance distributed throughout the coil with much higher potential levels between turns can draw in current through the coil, especially if the capacitance is between turns that are not physically connected electrically just 1 turn away. I believe a normal coil has an inrush of current in relation to its very tiny capacitance's in series from one end of the coil to the other. But it is only as much as the potential value of the capacitance, of which is smaller and smaller the more turns it has.

Like a cap with 2 plates 1 inch away from each other. Then slide 10 thin evenly spaced plates, 1 inch between them between the 2 cap plates, all plates are spaced 1 inch, none of the plates are in physical contact with each other. First we measure the capacitance between the 2 plates 1 inch apart and then the 12 plates each 1 inch apart. The 2 plates at 1 inch will have much more capacity than the 2 plates with 10 plates between them. Mostly the capacitance is reduced because of the additional space between the caps outer plates that have the connections to the outer world. Its the same as putting them in series but the middle plates dont have wires or any physical connections. But if we remove those lone 10 plates, and the 2 outer plates are still as many inches apart, we still have near the same capacitance with the 10 plates or not, depending on the total thickness of the plates as they reduce the distance electrically/electrostatic between the 2 outer plates. If they are very thin, then not much difference.
This is the arrangement of the capacitance in a normal coil. The further away the ends of the coil the less total capacitance. But in a bifi the first turn of one end of the coil is interlaced with a winding that is 1/2 the total coils length from the other end of the coil. And so is every other turn throughout the coil as a whole. Its not magic. Its just what it is.

But the bifi is more similar to every other of the 12 plates being connected together and the others in between connected together. So there 'is' more capacitance in a bifi than a normal coil. And the difference is enhanced the more turns you have mostly because the capacitance in a normal coil is reduced the more turns you have.



"I am saying it's possible that the SBC was designed by Tesla for lab experiments because he could not source high-voltage capacitors because they didn't exist at the time."

Umm, you better read that pat again. We discussed this in the other thread and it wasnt that the caps didnt exist, heck he had patents on them. It was because they were too 'bulky' and 'expensive'. Tesla has many writings and drawings about and the use of capacitors before and around that time. Thats for certain.    This is not to say that there may be other uses for these coils, just because he didnt mention other ideas for it in the patent.
Some companies patent individual parts of an invention without having to describe the whole invention initially or at all, there by hiding the idea of the invention while protecting the important building blocks of the whole. Not to say that this was Teslas intention, but it is a possibility. The guy was wicked smart.



"The moment that HV capacitors became available he may have never thought about the SBC again.  I am just speculating."

Its possible. But it is not fact yet, as you state. 



Here is something to think about. If we have an LC and we apply a voltage across its ends, what would happen immediately? The cap would charge, and fast. So if you think a bifi coil is the same as just a coil with a cap across it, then you must believe that the capacitance in the bifi would do the same, correct?  And where is that capacitor in the bifi coil?  Its in the coil!!  With the bifi we have just neutralized the self inductance of the coil and current would flow instantly. And what happens when that bifi capacitance is fully charged? Current is flowing through the coil a full bore. No lag, no waiting. But the normal LC;s coil will lag current flow in reference to the caps charge intake from the source.  So the bifi is not exactly the same as an LC, whether it rings at the same freq as the LC or not. There are other differences.




Mags

[MileHigh]

Magluvin:

The difference between the 2 voltages is 2500%.  And the parts of my post you neglected to reply on explain percent levels up to 60,000% difference. Not beating on you here but I think those are important and very significant numbers while we are having this conversation.

I read all of your comments I just responded in a generic way at the beginning of the posting.  If you try to measure the capacitive energy in the SBC coil it will be interesting.

So in 'reality' , there is nothing high freq about 60hz, is there? Now replace that 100nf cap with a 1uf cap. What would our operating freq be then? Pretty much subsonic.  So maybe we can ditch the fact that we are only limited to high freq operation, as long as we have large enough bifi inductance in our motors.

It may be possible, but I seem to recall various testers getting their coils to self-resonate in the hundreds of kilohertz to megahertz range.  I don't know how big you want to go but it sounds to me like 60 Henries is one big mother of a coil.

If you can get low frequency resonance, what do you want to do with that coil?

The way I see it, if we want to use high inductance coils in our pulse motors, more than likely the rise time of the coil is going to be slow, limiting the max potential of its field strength within the time allotment of on time of the switch. Depending on the speed of the motor and switching of course.

You are actually suggesting a good experiment.  Test different drive coil configurations where you vary the inductance.  Is there a 'sweet spot' for the drive coil inductance?

So by 'neutralizing' the self inductance of a very high inductance coil, we eliminate rise time in the coil. The coil will produce max field much faster than a regular coil, giving a sharper pulse than a normal coil of similar inductance and be able to shorten the on time of the switch being we dont have to wait for the field to build like a normal coil.

Another issue worth revisiting.  You are not visualizing this properly.  The 'neutralizing of the self inductance' relates to the coil acting as a band pass filter for an AC signal.  At the resonance frequency the complex impedance will drop to zero and you will be left with just the wire resistance.  When you talk about rise time in the coil this is for the coil acting in a pulse circuit, a different animal.  You will have to wait for the field to build in an SBC coil the same as in a normal coil as a the voltage starts to overcome the inductance and gets it to move.  We know that the SBC coil and the same-sized normal coil have approximately the same inductance, and thee is no short-cut like you believe.  You are mixing apples and oranges.  Check it out for yourself on the bench.

Having the capacitance distributed throughout the coil with much higher potential levels between turns can draw in current through the coil, especially if the capacitance is between turns that are not physically connected electrically just 1 turn away. I believe a normal coil has an inrush of current in relation to its very tiny capacitance's in series from one end of the coil to the other.

That sounds reasonable to me.  It's hard to know exactly what the dynamics are for the SBC coil and capacitive charge distribution in the coil and how the current might flow, etc.  It may be next to impossible to measure because any current associated with charging the inter-loop capacitance may be superimposed on the main current flow as the inductor energizes.  You sound like you want to do the investigation and it should be fun.  I think looking for differences between a standard coil and an SBC coil, same dimensions, same wire and turns, would be your best bet at detecting something of note.  I don't think you have a DSO but you might have a USB scope?  That would come in handy.

Just to look at this one more time:

Here is something to think about. If we have an LC and we apply a voltage across its ends, what would happen immediately? The cap would charge, and fast. So if you think a bifi coil is the same as just a coil with a cap across it, then you must believe that the capacitance in the bifi would do the same, correct?  And where is that capacitor in the bifi coil?  Its in the coil!!  With the bifi we have just neutralized the self inductance of the coil and current would flow instantly.

Here is the problem in a nutshell:  Even though the capacitance is there, the current still has to corkscrew though the coil.  So on its way to charge the inter-loop capacitance the current still has to overcome the inductance and push it along.  The dynamics of it are not trivial.

Here is something that may be applicable to visualize what is going on.  You take the analogy of inductance as the massless spring and capacitance as the mass.   So an LC resonator is like a massless spring affixed to a concrete wall on one end and to the oscillating mass on the other end.  Imagine that setup about pallet-sized with a big 100-turn mechanical spring made out of thin Berryllium and a 10 kilogram mass on a very low friction surface oscillating back and forth at about 5 Hz. Let's assume that the spring is not too stiff hence the low oscillation frequency.

We know pure inductance is represented by a massless spring.  But you have a real-world spring you know it's made of a loop of wire with windings that have mass.  Mass is capacitance, and the SBC coil has inter-loop capacitance.

So, it's very possible that a real-world spring with mass would be a decent model for how an SBC coil behaves.  So imagine kicking that big spring and watching it vibrate and wiggle in a kind of random and unstable way until it rings down completely and stops moving.  Even think of doing something similar as a kid with a Slinky, where you pull the slinky tight and then pluck it to send waves bouncing back and forth through the loops.  It's possible that the SBC coil will behave like that in the electrical domain.  You never know...

MileHigh

[sparks]

      If an electron leaves an atom isn't the atom cooler?