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thermodynamics of cores.2nd law breach?

Started by profitis, July 02, 2013, 07:57:07 PM

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MileHigh

Profits:

Quotelets say weve designed the circuit to tailor-suit the properties of gadolinium and just got it right so that the temperature does drop below its curie point(easy to believe because the heat re-intake speed has to keep up with an almost instantaneous cessation of current in the core wires when switched off and thus necesarily much faster collapse of magnetic field than initial build-up of magnetic field)and thus goes from a paramagnetic material into a ferromagnetic material(greater order)

I don't see the huge significance of the Curie point here.  It marks the transition point where magnetic domains are stable or not in the "mosh pit" of the jostling molecules.  If you ignore the magnetic properties, then there is nothing.  When you factor in the temperature, then you have two states, either you can store magnetic energy in aligned domains or you can't.

I don't have any context for "instantaneous cessation of current."  Are you envisioning a test setup of some sort?  If yes please describe it.  Also, in reading the description of the effect it looks like you might actually want to decrease the current slowly, but I don't know what rate or if that is a true statement.  In the brief description of the effect it says, "a decrease in the strength of an externally applied magnetic field" which tends to suggest a slow decrease.  This will give the thermal energy enough time to make good "mosh pit hits" and knock the domains out of alignment.

You are wrong about the order change when you say, "thus goes from a paramagnetic material into a ferromagnetic material(greater order)."  On the materials side, lower temperature means less order which equates to increasing entropy.  In parallel with that you have the magnetic entropy of the material to factor in when it is below the Curie point temperature.  When you magnetize and set up magnetic domains in the same direction you increase the energy level and decrease the associated magnetic entropy.

I think where you are going wrong is you are relating temperature change to the amount of magnetic order and they are two separate things.  The total entropy would be the the entropy of the material as a function of temperature and the magnetic entropy as a function of magnetic domain alignment.  What we can see is that the magnetocaloric effect allows for the transfer of small amounts of entropy (or energy) between the two types of entropy.  However, it takes work to accomplish this.  Note that you can look at this as just being a powered heat pump, just like the refrigerator in your kitchen.  The key point being that you have to supply external power for this effect to work.

Quotenow we need a GREATER intake of heat than we exhausted to overcome this spontaneous increase of order of dipoles in our core and restore them to original random state.in other words we created a sinkhole for ambient heat with no expenditure of energy.the brief ferromagnetic  state giving a stronger induction at moment of collapse than during paramagnetic buildup

I am assuming that the "sinkhole" for heat that you refer to is the magnetocaloric effect reducing the temperature of the gadolinium.  The problem is that it is not happening like you think.

You assume that the magnetocaloric effect is going to operate on the gadolinium in a vacuum, i.e.; an adiabatic environment, if you want to bring the temperature down very close to absolute zero.  You can imagine it happening in little steps.  So the power cycle is when the coil is energized to create the magnetic field and line up the domains.  Then most likely the current is slowly decreased and they let the heat in the gadolinium do the work of breaking up the magnetic domains.  Then they do it again and again, perhaps thousands of cycles, to bring the material very close to 0 K.

Note the process is a powered process just like your kitchen fridge has to be powered.  It's just another form of heat pump.  The transition from above/below the Curie point is not all that significant in the scheme of things and I think that you are reading too much into it and making incorrect assumptions.

MileHigh

profitis

@milehigh..am i? Maybe, maybe not.allow us to examine the crux of the matter milehigh,the,as you said,entropy change in gadolinium when it passes through the curie point.the important question here is,does heat flow out of gadolinium the moment it undergoes this curiepoint quantum re-ordering to ferromagnetic,or,does heat flow in,or does no heat at all flow.what do you think,do you perhaps know the answer to this crucial question. Im reffering to gadolinium in general,not necesseraly this circuit.

MileHigh

Profits:

You are still not specifying the setup enough but I will answer anyways.

Without the presence of a magnetic field then when the gadolinium goes from above the Curie point to below the curie point nothing special happens at all.  There is heat flow out of the metal but it is the normal heat flow.  There is no "quantum reordering to ferromagnetic" like you are suggesting.

MileHigh

profitis

@milehigh nothing special happens? Are you sure.we take a rod of gadolinium and slowly,steadily reduce its temperature and the moment it passes below 19degree celcius theres no sudden puff of heat flow out of the rod to the environment at the moment of transition?are you certain milehigh.remember certain elements/compounds do give off a puff of heat when they crystallize as an analogy.

profitis

@milehigh.thers no sudden entropy change the moment we go below 19degree celcius,are you sure about this