Overunity electrolysis - 31 times more effective gas production than with DC

[Marshallin]

I did read the article. Can you read the graph? Their DATA does not agree with the quote. Look at Figure 3b. As the power increases (the "legend" gives the power levels of the trials, groups of data points indicated by the little symbols triangle, square, circle etc.) the electrical efficiency goes DOWN and so does the gas volume per watt (Fig3A) and in all cases, except for the lowest actual powerlevel and one frequency at that level.... is BELOW that of the straight DC power. It looks to me, from Figure 3B, that the efficiency of the pulsed power goes down at even greater rate as the DC efficiency does with increasing power levels, and it starts out less efficient in the first place. In other words, I interpret that graph to indicate exactly the opposite of what is quoted above and I see no justification in the Japanese paper for asserting otherwise.

Perhaps you can explain Figure 3, reproduced above, to me so that I understand it better.

I will do my best :

3a, hydrogen generation vs input power
with pulses (i - 7.9 v) and (ii - 9.7v) they are able to get same or slightly better hydrogen generation like in DC. They increasing power by increasing frequency.

3b, power effieciency vs input power
again first two experiments are same or slightly better then DC one. Other two experiment do not goes well.

Main catch is that in DC electrolysis you cannot increasing power forever. After diffusion layer is establish, you will always run into the point when ionts stop being able to transfer current properly from one electrode to another. This is reason why heat is produced and efficiency goes down. Only way how to fix it, is with increasing size of electrodes, or adding ionts to do solution.

With pulsed electolysis "in theory" difusion layer is never establised so you can increase current as much as you want (or as your induction core or power source let you).  Again "in theory", this can way we cant create low cost small but powerfull electrolysers. Or we can run electrolysers with salt water since we dont care too much about DC resistance or mineral in solution.

Thats why quote : "This difference seems to be very important for the practical and industrial application of ultra-short power electrolysis since the electrolysis power can be increased without decreasing the efficiency."


But I understand what you mean. I did read the graph. All thes measurment are of course incoclusive. You can even see like some of sentenses are like taken from context.  Like i said before main purpouse of this document is provide just right amount of information to get sameone interest(investor or buyer for patent).

I can say that i did alredy few of experiments, and you can acualy run pulsed electrolysis in destiled demineralized water almost without heating water. Quite strange.

I am not claming any overunity here. I just think that this is worth of exploring. I will be gratefull for any constructive ideas.

[TinselKoala]

I will do my best :

3a, hydrogen generation vs input power
with pulses (i - 7.9 v) and (ii - 9.7v) they are able to get same or slightly better hydrogen generation like in DC. They increasing power by increasing frequency.

No, in every case except for the single data point at the highest frequency used for the 7.9 v trials, the hydrogen generation is WELL BELOW the DC case. Don't forget you are looking at a _log_ scale on the Watts axis. A tiny displacement to the right is a large increase in wattage.

Now, please tell me how increasing the frequency of a pulsed signal increases the power delivered by that signal.

3b, power effieciency vs input power
again first two experiments are same or slightly better then DC one. Other two experiment do not goes well.

NO! Again, only that single data point from a single power level is above the DC efficiency. The same single data point used above, with the same caveats.

If you draw a line through the centroids of the groups, you see that the efficiency DECREASES with increasing power, and the downward slope of this line is steeper than the DC line, which indicates that the pulsed power efficiency DECREASES at a greater rate with increasing power than the straight DC efficiency does. A  much greater rate, actually, since the x-axis is logarithmic.

Main catch is that in DC electrolysis you cannot increasing power forever. After diffusion layer is establish, you will always run into the point when ionts stop being able to transfer current properly from one electrode to another. This is reason why heat is produced and efficiency goes down. Only way how to fix it, is with increasing size of electrodes, or adding ionts to do solution.

With pulsed electolysis "in theory" difusion layer is never establised so you can increase current as much as you want (or as your induction core or power source let you).  Again "in theory", this can way we cant create low cost small but powerfull electrolysers. Or we can run electrolysers with salt water since we dont care too much about DC resistance or mineral in solution.

Thats why quote : "This difference seems to be very important for the practical and industrial application of ultra-short power electrolysis since the electrolysis power can be increased without decreasing the efficiency."


But I understand what you mean. I did read the graph. All thes measurment are of course incoclusive. You can even see like some of sentenses are like taken from context.  Like i said before main purpouse of this document is provide just right amount of information to get sameone interest(investor or buyer for patent).

Ah... so the measurements are only conclusive if they support the claims. If they do not support the claims, as I have shown that they don't, the measurements become inconclusive. Got it, I'll try to remember that property of OU measurements.

I can say that i did alredy few of experiments, and you can acualy run pulsed electrolysis in destiled demineralized water almost without heating water. Quite strange.

I am not claming any overunity here. I just think that this is worth of exploring. I will be gratefull for any constructive ideas.

Here's a constructive idea: Set up your experiments so that they are True Experiments, and don't overinterpret your data in order to push your foregone conclusions. This is harder than you might think.

[Marshallin]

No, in every case except for the single data point at the highest frequency used for the 7.9 v trials, the hydrogen generation is WELL BELOW the DC case. Don't forget you are looking at a _log_ scale on the Watts axis. A tiny displacement to the right is a large increase in wattage.

Now, please tell me how increasing the frequency of a pulsed signal increases the power delivered by that signal.
NO! Again, only that single data point from a single power level is above the DC efficiency. The same single data point used above, with the same caveats.

If you draw a line through the centroids of the groups, you see that the efficiency DECREASES with increasing power, and the downward slope of this line is steeper than the DC line, which indicates that the pulsed power efficiency DECREASES at a greater rate with increasing power than the straight DC efficiency does. A  much greater rate, actually, since the x-axis is logarithmic.
Ah... so the measurements are only conclusive if they support the claims. If they do not support the claims, as I have shown that they don't, the measurements become inconclusive. Got it, I'll try to remember that property of OU measurements.

Here's a constructive idea: Set up your experiments so that they are True Experiments, and don't overinterpret your data in order to push your foregone conclusions. This is harder than you might think.

If you have fixed lenght of pulse, and increase frequency of pulse occuring you will increase power .... but i will not argue with you.

Comon man there is no reason to insult others way of thinking. Like i said all of this is just theory, and you ask me.

[Kator01]

Hello Mr. LesBani,

glad to see you here since your last approach concerning your analog-controlled inginition and fuel-Injection-System.

I have just one question: which core-type would you suggest ? Bandwidth 10 MegaHz ?

Regards

Kator01

[profitis]

Kator,what was that guys name that discovered a similar efficiency on his speedboat electrolysis system by accident do you remember.the guy that was dying of some disease