Magnet Myths and Misconceptions

[MileHigh]

TK:

I have been digesting the second half of this thread recently in small chunks.  I finally got around to looking at the links you provided and now I am unsure about the charge density and voltage issue.  Honestly when I start looking at all of the formulas with the "del" operator I know that I would have to do a lot of work to revert back and relearn stuff all the way back to all of those electromagnetics courses that I took way back when.  Since I have been in "lite" mode for quite some time there is no fire in the belly to do that anymore.  Like I stated already, I am aware of my technical limitations and just as importantly I am aware of my limited desire for investing work and time and engaging in stuff like this.

So I am going to defer to your expertize and throw in the towel on this thread.  The stuff that I stated in this first half of this thread is sound but I am not going to take it any further.  It's actually a "liberating experience" in a way.  I will give you an example from my hardware roots.  I remember agonizing over the stupid original PC card bus because I designed cards for that bus.  It eventually was called the "ISA" bus.  If I recall correctly there was this stupid signal on that bus called "AEN" (address enable.)  Some manufacturers of PCs did not drive that signal the way others did.  Part of the reason was that there was no "true" standard.  So you had to put an old-fashioned jumper on your card in case the customer was using NEC PCs because NEC (I think) were the "bad guys" that drove the AEN signal in a non-standard way and there were a lot of NEC PCs in the market at that time.  Agonizing, annoying crap.

Then I retired from all of that and moved on.  Then the PCI bus came out and it was a hell of a lot faster.  I could not give a rat's ass about the details for how the PCI bus worked.  I never even bothered to read much about the guts of how it worked and I absolutely never looked at the signal descriptions for that bus.  It was liberating, the only thing I had to know was that you plugged a card into a PCI bus slot and it was faster.  Engineers still had agonizing issues about plug-and-play (plug-and-pray) and making jumper-free cards that booted up in the PC without any addressing conflicts.  I couldn't care less.

So I made some good points in the beginning of the thread and will move on.  And I see once more, that more recently the thread is being "polluted" with myths and misconceptions and superstitions.  It's frustrating but who really cares in the "big picture" overall scheme of things.  What difference does it really make?

As they say in sales, "just walk away."

MileHigh

[TinselKoala]

Had some distractions, friends came over, and spent some time with the pic issue on my shop laptop.

Anyway, finished, but no testing tonight.

Mags

It's beautiful! But will it spin? I am predicting it will not, but if you can get it to, I will join you in  jumping for joy. After all, I also predicted it should be impossible to spin a sphere magnet on its true magnetic axis by applying external pulses from a coil ... and then I went ahead and did it anyway.

You could easily make it spin, though, by rotating the toroid 90 degrees out of the plane of the rotor, and then pulsing the coils at the right times to make an Orbo-effect PM. As we discussed earlier. It would really look cool even though it wouldn't be something entirely new.

[TinselKoala]

TK:

I have been digesting the second half of this thread recently in small chunks.  I finally got around to looking at the links you provided and now I am unsure about the charge density and voltage issue.  Honestly when I start looking at all of the formulas with the "del" operator I know that I would have to do a lot of work to revert back and relearn stuff all the way back to all of those electromagnetics courses that I took way back when.  Since I have been in "lite" mode for quite some time there is no fire in the belly to do that anymore.  Like I stated already, I am aware of my technical limitations and just as importantly I am aware of my limited desire for investing work and time and engaging in stuff like this.

So I am going to defer to your expertize and throw in the towel on this thread.  The stuff that I stated in this first half of this thread is sound but I am not going to take it any further.  It's actually a "liberating experience" in a way.  I will give you an example from my hardware roots.  I remember agonizing over the stupid original PC card bus because I designed cards for that bus.  It eventually was called the "ISA" bus.  If I recall correctly there was this stupid signal on that bus called "AEN" (address enable.)  Some manufacturers of PCs did not drive that signal the way others did.  Part of the reason was that there was no "true" standard.  So you had to put an old-fashioned jumper on your card in case the customer was using NEC PCs because NEC (I think) were the "bad guys" that drove the AEN signal in a non-standard way and there were a lot of NEC PCs in the market at that time.  Agonizing, annoying crap.

Then I retired from all of that and moved on.  Then the PCI bus came out and it was a hell of a lot faster.  I could not give a rat's ass about the details for how the PCI bus worked.  I never even bothered to read much about the guts of how it worked and I absolutely never looked at the signal descriptions for that bus.  It was liberating, the only thing I had to know was that you plugged a card into a PCI bus slot and it was faster.  Engineers still had agonizing issues about plug-and-play (plug-and-pray) and making jumper-free cards that booted up in the PC without any addressing conflicts.  I couldn't care less.

So I made some good points in the beginning of the thread and will move on.  And I see once more, that more recently the thread is being "polluted" with myths and misconceptions and superstitions.  It's frustrating but who really cares in the "big picture" overall scheme of things.  What difference does it really make?

As they say in sales, "just walk away."

MileHigh

MH, you are doing good. The fact that we can discuss these things without descending into stupid insults, Jane you ignorant slut, and arguments ad hominem abusive (can't spell for zits so you must be a lousy nuclear physicist) should be a model for others. We each have opinions and each know facts and we each have experience, some shared some not, and we can each cite references to support our positions. Eventually we reach a synthesis that works, even if we still might not have perfect agreement between our mental models of this ultimately mysterious phenomenon of electromagnetism. And I can see .99 shaking his head with much amusement.

And if you still don't agree with me, let's step outside in back and settle this like men.

[Magluvin]

It's beautiful! But will it spin? I am predicting it will not, but if you can get it to, I will join you in  jumping for joy. After all, I also predicted it should be impossible to spin a sphere magnet on its true magnetic axis by applying external pulses from a coil ... and then I went ahead and did it anyway.

You could easily make it spin, though, by rotating the toroid 90 degrees out of the plane of the rotor, and then pulsing the coils at the right times to make an Orbo-effect PM. As we discussed earlier. It would really look cool even though it wouldn't be something entirely new.

Well, so far, I havnt gotten even a tiny movement from this thing.  It was a couple years ago. When I didnt get constant run results, I put it aside.  Some of it is coming back to me, maybe Ill figure it out.

So today I made a new rotor with a bearing that I had removed the grease to spin easy. The bearing I put into the white rotor didnt let the rotor spin very freely. The bearings that were originally in that rotor ar in another project that I dont want to take apart. So I made the new rotor. Only tried with 2 mags so far, no go. Hitting the coil with 170v from a 470mf cap. nada.  I dont get it. I dont remember if I used higher voltage on it back then or not.

So after the new rotor didnt move with just 2 mags, I figure adding more mags just makes the rotor heavier and any additional force on the rotor because of more mags would be negligible.

Then I decided to go very basic.  1  26awg vertical wire and 1 mag on the rotor. 170v pulse moves the rotor, just a bit. Vid getting ready to upload. Might take a bit. Will post when its done.

Anyway, Will see if I have any old vids on the rotor moving like I stated.  I hope I remember what I was doing back then.

Mags

[TinselKoala]

Pretty pretty. You could also try the rotor with the magnet poles vertical instead of radial. That's how my Marinov Slab works. I think the toroidal winding (without projecting pole pieces like the QEG) is keeping the field within the core mostly, and also your system seems symmetrical, it's hard to see what unbalanced force could be expected to move the rotor. The advantage of using vertical magnets is that both poles come into play, whereas with radial magnets you only use one pole of the magnet in most designs.

It's important that you did the experiment with the vertical wire only. This shows that even the field from a single "turn" can cause stuff to move around, when the orientations are right and current strength is ample.