Magnet Myths and Misconceptions

[tinman]

I have some more crazy questions:

Moving electrons produce magnetic field in a conductor carrying curent.  So, when you bring a repelling pole near it,  the repulsion force should act on electrons producing the magnetic field and electrons should be ejected out of the conductor.   But actually we see that repulsion force acts on mass of conductor as a whole imparting momentum on entire mass of the conductor itself. (which is the principle used in all motors)

When you subject a current carrying conductor to extreme repulsion, conductor itself will bend but electrons will not be ejected out.   Why?

Does it mean that electrons are tightly held to mass of the conductor?   If moving electrons are tightly held to the conductor, how they will move? 


Can some 'genius' answer it?

It is my beliefe that free electrons only become free to move when a magnetic field is present. Lets look at the homopolar generator. Only when there is a magnetic field present in the area of the spining copper disk,will the free electrons flow through that disk. I really think that the homopolar generator holds many answers we seek,but no one as of yet has tried to piece together how the magnetic field and spin of the disk are interacting with each other.

Some here will say they know exactly how a homopolar generator work's,but cannot explain what the magnetic field actually is. Sure we know how to create it,and why it it is formed,but still dont know what it is. The other thing you have to ask is this-is it the moving electrons that produce a magnetic field,or is it the magnetic field that allows the electrons to move?.The homopolar generator says the latter is true-you need a magnetic field in order to get the free electrons to flow,and the stronger that field,the more electrons will flow.The homopolare generator produces a low voltage,but very high current,and as current is carried by electrons,then the higher the current MUST mean that more electrons are flowing.

Some things that stand out in a homopolar generator that may hold the answers are-
1-Stronger the magnetic field through the disk-the more current is produced.
2-The faster the rotation of the disk-the more current is produced.
Some odd things are-
1-reverse rotation of disk(with magnetic field in same polarity),and the current flow is reversed.
2-reverse the polarity of the magnetic field through the disk,and the current flow is reversed.
3-Current is produced weather the magnets are fixed or rotate with the copper disk.
4-Current isnt produced if the disk is fixed,and magnets are rotated around the disk.
5-As we have what is called the north field on one side of the disk,and the south on the other,then the disk itself must be in this neutral zone of the magnetic field they talk about-could this be why the current flow direction changes when the rotation direction changes?

Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction cannot be used to explain how the homopolar generator work's,as there is no change in magnetic flux. So they then decided that they would use the Lorentz force law to explain it's opperation.Quote: The force on an electron is proportional to the cross product of its velocity and the magnetic flux vector. In geometrical terms, this means that the force is at right-angles to both the velocity (azimuthal) and the magnetic flux (axial), which is therefore in a radial direction.
Now,the magnetic flux vector thing. Problem is that the magnetic flux within the disk is this neutral field(half north/half south).Since when can a current be produced using this neutral field?.And why dose current flow change direction by only reversing the disk rotation,when the radial force would remain the same regardless of rotational direction?.

There must be a flow of something between the north and south field of a magnet,and what ever this flow is made of is what is acting apon the electrons.Lets say the flow of this mistical matter is from north to south of the magnet's,and so this flow is through the copper disc. By flipping the magnets over so as we reverse the polarity across(through)the copper disk,we reverse the flow of this misticle matter-so this would explain the reverse in current flow through the disk. But why dose the current reverse direction when we leave the magnetic polarity the same,but reverse the direction of rotation of the copper disk . Well maybe(just maybe) TA's theory on magnetic spin is right-i mean it fit's right into how the homopolar generator dose what it dose.Maybe the copper disk now has this spiral magnetic field within it,and the electrons are being pumped out of the disk much the same as water is pumped out of a centrifugal water pump. And like the water pump,if we reverse the direction of the rotor,we reverse the direction of flow.Also like in the water pump,if we spin the magnets over(spin the impeller over)we also get a reverse in flow.Is this why one of Tesla's homopolar generator design's used spiral rotor's?.

[Liberty]

It is my beliefe that free electrons only become free to move when a magnetic field is present. Lets look at the homopolar generator. Only when there is a magnetic field present in the area of the spining copper disk,will the free electrons flow through that disk. I really think that the homopolar generator holds many answers we seek,but no one as of yet has tried to piece together how the magnetic field and spin of the disk are interacting with each other.

Some here will say they know exactly how a homopolar generator work's,but cannot explain what the magnetic field actually is. Sure we know how to create it,and why it it is formed,but still dont know what it is. The other thing you have to ask is this-is it the moving electrons that produce a magnetic field,or is it the magnetic field that allows the electrons to move?.The homopolar generator says the latter is true-you need a magnetic field in order to get the free electrons to flow,and the stronger that field,the more electrons will flow.The homopolare generator produces a low voltage,but very high current,and as current is carried by electrons,then the higher the current MUST mean that more electrons are flowing.

Some things that stand out in a homopolar generator that may hold the answers are-
1-Stronger the magnetic field through the disk-the more current is produced.
2-The faster the rotation of the disk-the more current is produced.
Some odd things are-
1-reverse rotation of disk(with magnetic field in same polarity),and the current flow is reversed.
2-reverse the polarity of the magnetic field through the disk,and the current flow is reversed.
3-Current is produced weather the magnets are fixed or rotate with the copper disk.
4-Current isnt produced if the disk is fixed,and magnets are rotated around the disk.
5-As we have what is called the north field on one side of the disk,and the south on the other,then the disk itself must be in this neutral zone of the magnetic field they talk about-could this be why the current flow direction changes when the rotation direction changes?

Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction cannot be used to explain how the homopolar generator work's,as there is no change in magnetic flux. So they then decided that they would use the Lorentz force law to explain it's opperation.Quote: The force on an electron is proportional to the cross product of its velocity and the magnetic flux vector. In geometrical terms, this means that the force is at right-angles to both the velocity (azimuthal) and the magnetic flux (axial), which is therefore in a radial direction.
Now,the magnetic flux vector thing. Problem is that the magnetic flux within the disk is this neutral field(half north/half south).Since when can a current be produced using this neutral field?.And why dose current flow change direction by only reversing the disk rotation,when the radial force would remain the same regardless of rotational direction?.

There must be a flow of something between the north and south field of a magnet,and what ever this flow is made of is what is acting apon the electrons.Lets say the flow of this mistical matter is from north to south of the magnet's,and so this flow is through the copper disc. By flipping the magnets over so as we reverse the polarity across(through)the copper disk,we reverse the flow of this misticle matter-so this would explain the reverse in current flow through the disk. But why dose the current reverse direction when we leave the magnetic polarity the same,but reverse the direction of rotation of the copper disk . Well maybe(just maybe) TA's theory on magnetic spin is right-i mean it fit's right into how the homopolar generator dose what it dose.Maybe the copper disk now has this spiral magnetic field within it,and the electrons are being pumped out of the disk much the same as water is pumped out of a centrifugal water pump. And like the water pump,if we reverse the direction of the rotor,we reverse the direction of flow.Also like in the water pump,if we spin the magnets over(spin the impeller over)we also get a reverse in flow.Is this why one of Tesla's homopolar generator design's used spiral rotor's?.

"Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction cannot be used to explain how the homopolar generator work's,as there is no change in magnetic flux."

Actually Faraday's law of induction is the only thing that accurately explains how the homopolar generator works.  That is, if you understand how the brush connected to the outside of the rotor, and the other contact to the center of the rotor, creates a "virtual wire" across the rotor, that creates a virtual wire that is constantly moving through a magnetic field (experiencing a constant change of magnetic field as long as there is motion).  The relative motion within a magnetic field is what produces a polarized current (DC).

Liberty

[tinman]

"Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction cannot be used to explain how the homopolar generator work's,as there is no change in magnetic flux."

Actually Faraday's law of induction is the only thing that accurately explains how the homopolar generator works.  That is, if you understand how the brush connected to the outside of the rotor, and the other contact to the center of the rotor, creates a "virtual wire" across the rotor, that creates a virtual wire that is constantly moving through a magnetic field (experiencing a constant change of magnetic field as long as there is motion).  The relative motion within a magnetic field is what produces a polarized current (DC).

Liberty

There is no change in magnetic field,nor is there a change in current direction-there for Faradays law of magnetic induction dosnt apply to the homopolar generator.Quote: Like all dynamos, the Faraday disc converts kinetic energy to electrical energy. This machine can not be analysed using Faraday's own law of electromagnetic induction. This law (in its modern form) states that an electric current is induced in a closed electrical circuit when the magnetic flux enclosed by the circuit changes. In Faraday's law, EMF is the time-derivative of flux, so a DC EMF is only possible if the magnetic flux is getting uniformly larger and larger perpetually. But in the generator, the magnetic field is constant and the disc stays in the same position, so no magnetic fluxes are growing larger and larger. So this example cannot be analyzed directly with Faraday's law.

The Lorentz force law is more easily used to explain the machine's behaviour. This law, formulated thirty years after Faraday's death, states that the force on an electron is proportional to the cross product of its velocity and the magnetic flux vector. In geometrical terms, this means that the force is at right-angles to both the velocity (azimuthal) and the magnetic flux (axial), which is therefore in a radial direction. The radial movement of the electrons in the disc produces a charge separation between the center of the disc and its rim, and if the circuit is completed an electric current will be produced.
There is no wire constantly moving through the magnetic field,as both the wire and field are stationary.
Also the twin disk homopolar generator disprove's your theory Liberty,as both brushes are at the center of the carrying shaft-there is no outer brush. Are you sure your not thinking of a homopolar motor?.

[Magluvin]

It is my beliefe that free electrons only become free to move when a magnetic field is present. Lets look at the homopolar generator. Only when there is a magnetic field present in the area of the spining copper disk,will the free electrons flow through that disk. I really think that the homopolar generator holds many answers we seek,but no one as of yet has tried to piece together how the magnetic field and spin of the disk are interacting with each other.

Some here will say they know exactly how a homopolar generator work's,but cannot explain what the magnetic field actually is. Sure we know how to create it,and why it it is formed,but still dont know what it is. The other thing you have to ask is this-is it the moving electrons that produce a magnetic field,or is it the magnetic field that allows the electrons to move?.The homopolar generator says the latter is true-you need a magnetic field in order to get the free electrons to flow,and the stronger that field,the more electrons will flow.The homopolare generator produces a low voltage,but very high current,and as current is carried by electrons,then the higher the current MUST mean that more electrons are flowing.

Some things that stand out in a homopolar generator that may hold the answers are-
1-Stronger the magnetic field through the disk-the more current is produced.
2-The faster the rotation of the disk-the more current is produced.
Some odd things are-
1-reverse rotation of disk(with magnetic field in same polarity),and the current flow is reversed.
2-reverse the polarity of the magnetic field through the disk,and the current flow is reversed.
3-Current is produced weather the magnets are fixed or rotate with the copper disk.
4-Current isnt produced if the disk is fixed,and magnets are rotated around the disk.
5-As we have what is called the north field on one side of the disk,and the south on the other,then the disk itself must be in this neutral zone of the magnetic field they talk about-could this be why the current flow direction changes when the rotation direction changes?

Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction cannot be used to explain how the homopolar generator work's,as there is no change in magnetic flux. So they then decided that they would use the Lorentz force law to explain it's opperation.Quote: The force on an electron is proportional to the cross product of its velocity and the magnetic flux vector. In geometrical terms, this means that the force is at right-angles to both the velocity (azimuthal) and the magnetic flux (axial), which is therefore in a radial direction.
Now,the magnetic flux vector thing. Problem is that the magnetic flux within the disk is this neutral field(half north/half south).Since when can a current be produced using this neutral field?.And why dose current flow change direction by only reversing the disk rotation,when the radial force would remain the same regardless of rotational direction?.

There must be a flow of something between the north and south field of a magnet,and what ever this flow is made of is what is acting apon the electrons.Lets say the flow of this mistical matter is from north to south of the magnet's,and so this flow is through the copper disc. By flipping the magnets over so as we reverse the polarity across(through)the copper disk,we reverse the flow of this misticle matter-so this would explain the reverse in current flow through the disk. But why dose the current reverse direction when we leave the magnetic polarity the same,but reverse the direction of rotation of the copper disk . Well maybe(just maybe) TA's theory on magnetic spin is right-i mean it fit's right into how the homopolar generator dose what it dose.Maybe the copper disk now has this spiral magnetic field within it,and the electrons are being pumped out of the disk much the same as water is pumped out of a centrifugal water pump. And like the water pump,if we reverse the direction of the rotor,we reverse the direction of flow.Also like in the water pump,if we spin the magnets over(spin the impeller over)we also get a reverse in flow.Is this why one of Tesla's homopolar generator design's used spiral rotor's?.

"Some odd things are-
1-reverse rotation of disk(with magnetic field in same polarity),and the current flow is reversed.
2-reverse the polarity of the magnetic field through the disk,and the current flow is reversed."

Exactly. It is odd isnt it?

Thats why I suggest that if the electron is the source of the magnetic field produced in the current carrying wire, then the electron must have a positive side to it and a negative side to it, in order for the electrons magnetic orientation to coincide accordingly when DC voltage is applied to the wire. The charge from the DC input causes the electrons to orient themselves  +- +- +- in the wire, therefore those affected electrons mag fields produce the same orientation around the wire. The more electrons affected by the input charge, the stronger the field around the wire due to those electrons being in the correct +- alignment and accordingly their field orientation.

Other wise, you can say it is odd and still wonder why.  I just came up with this the other day, as is totally plausible. 

Same as moving the magnets field across the wire or copper disk. The moving magnetic field causes the electrons circular field to orient the electrons in a way that their + and - sides line up creating a charge in the wire + at one end of the wire and - at the other. And if the 2 ends of the wire have a load or are shorted, then current flows.


The wire is made up of imperfections and atoms are oriented all different ways. So the electrons magnetic fields are all a mix. So no measurable field around the wire. But if we hit that wire with say 40kv from a cap, there will be a lot of electrons lined up from one end of the wire to the other +- +- +- +-  and a huge magnetic field is produced, along with all the extra electrons in the wire introduced by the discharge..

Mags

[Liberty]

There is no change in magnetic field,nor is there a change in current direction-there for Faradays law of magnetic induction dosnt apply to the homopolar generator.Quote: Like all dynamos, the Faraday disc converts kinetic energy to electrical energy. This machine can not be analysed using Faraday's own law of electromagnetic induction. This law (in its modern form) states that an electric current is induced in a closed electrical circuit when the magnetic flux enclosed by the circuit changes. In Faraday's law, EMF is the time-derivative of flux, so a DC EMF is only possible if the magnetic flux is getting uniformly larger and larger perpetually. But in the generator, the magnetic field is constant and the disc stays in the same position, so no magnetic fluxes are growing larger and larger. So this example cannot be analyzed directly with Faraday's law.

The Lorentz force law is more easily used to explain the machine's behaviour. This law, formulated thirty years after Faraday's death, states that the force on an electron is proportional to the cross product of its velocity and the magnetic flux vector. In geometrical terms, this means that the force is at right-angles to both the velocity (azimuthal) and the magnetic flux (axial), which is therefore in a radial direction. The radial movement of the electrons in the disc produces a charge separation between the center of the disc and its rim, and if the circuit is completed an electric current will be produced.
There is no wire constantly moving through the magnetic field,as both the wire and field are stationary.
Also the twin disk homopolar generator disprove's your theory Liberty,as both brushes are at the center of the carrying shaft-there is no outer brush. Are you sure your not thinking of a homopolar motor?.

In a magnet, the magnetic field is produced by many little magnets.  That is why when you pass a wire through a continuous magnetic field (surface of a magnet), it produces current flow.  The same principle in a standard generator is also working in a homopolar generator.  The homopolar generator that has a brush on the outside of the rotor and a contact on the center of the rotor, takes the shortest path, which is a straight path (virtual wire) which is the lowest resistance path.  This "virtual wire" is only present when the rotor is spun, as that is the only time when a current is produced.  The magnetic field combines with relative motion to produce current flow.  That current flow will act like a wire that passes through a magnetic field.  The reason the voltage is low is because the wire is short.  The reason the current is high, is because the conductive platter performs as a wide, flat wire.  The movement of the wire, is due to the rotation of the platter, and the moving contact on the rotor, constantly moving the position of the wire in the magnetic field.  Faster rotation produces more output current.  A stronger magnetic field will also produce a stronger current.

With the above in mind, rethink how you understand the operation of the twin disk homopolar generator.

Liberty