Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?

[MileHigh]

I have to do a little bit of house cleaning here.

Luc is accusing me of being a liar.  I am no liar and Luc's statement is offensive to me and I will respond to it to set the record straight.

BTW,  please read my closing post of that topic which will once again confirm MileHigh has written an untruth "I don't acknowledge an error when it is pointed out to me"

You are using flawed logic Luc, like some political spin artist.  "Once again" is pure spin and it's a lie on your part.  The fact that you acknowledged an error in a posting to Poyny99 a year ago doesn't mean that you acknowledge some or all of your errors and the efforts that people put in to correct them and educate you.  It certainly doesn't make me a liar, that's ridiculous.  I have corrected your errors numerous times and often went to considerable effort to explain the reasoning and to educate you so you wouldn't make them again.  Many times you didn't acknowledge the error nor did you acknowledge the effort that was made on my part to correct you and teach you and that's wrong.

Example #1:

http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427963/#msg427963

Luc:

Humm (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/undecided.gif) ... why do you keep writing unknown Inductance when I have already posted the DC Resistance and Inductance value?
http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427939/#msg427939

MileHigh:

It's because the measured inductance of your generator coil and the unknown inductance are different things.  Some of the unknown inductance may be coming from the generator coil.

The generator coil is responding to the spinning magnet attached to the prime mover.  That turns the generator coil into an EMF source.  This is not the inductance and it does not act like an inductance.  It's an AC voltage source, a.k.a. an EMF source.  As an AC voltage source, it does not have the property of inductance.

So you had no idea that the generator coil was not the "unknown inductance."  You did not understand the difference between a coil acting like an active EMF source vs. a passive inductance.  That's a big deal, and you never acknowledged your mistake and my follow-up posting.

Example #2:

Just look at the fist two postings in this thread.  Your analysis of your test was all wrong and you thought that you had "1.1W of gained power output which is not supplied by prime mover" and nothing could be further from the truth.  My response to you took considerable effort and you have not acknowledged your error or the work I did to help you.

Bonus:

"New" information about the 25-ohm resistor vs. the 1-ohm resistor and if the load will affect the prime mover.

http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428583/#msg428583

Luc Dec 22:

The test was using a 25 Ohm load. Show me the post where I wrote a 25 Ohm load will have no increased in power draw.
Also, I was testing this with half the RPM and power input then the first test but it's clear to me now that you are not here to help a researcher as you have once again taken the first opportunity to try to discredit me and that I don't know what I'm doing.

You will not be able to support your written statement above and I'm no longer going to bother replying to your posts.

http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428047/#msg428047

Luc Dec 17:

The Dremel is connected to a Kill-Watt power meter at all time to verify its power consumption.
The power meter has zero change when the coil is connected to the 1 and 12.5 Ohm load. There may be a half Watt increase (hard to tell) when the coil is connected to the 25 Ohm load but it's delivering 3.2 Watts. 
So the coil connected to the 25 Ohm load delivers 2.7 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
and the coil connected to the 12.5 Ohm load delivers 2 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.

You note I backtracked and stated that you were only talking about the one-ohm load resistor not affecting the prime mover.  Of course saying it won't affect the prime mover is wrong.  Well it turns out just a few days ago you did state that the 25-ohm load would not affect the prime mover.  Of course that is wrong also and lo and behold, people are human and they don't have perfect memories.  That includes me and it includes you.

In summary, many times I have corrected your errors and have gone to considerable effort to explain why and to educate you.  You did not acknowledge your errors, nor the effort put in to help you, nor did you state to your audience how your reconciled this and how you would move forward with your testing.  I am expecting this to change from now on and see you show respect for my efforts and other people's efforts.  You can't "turn invisible" when you make a mistake, especially when you are making a presentation for your peers on the site and to the wider Internet audience.  You have to be real.

I am no liar, and I just gave you the real deal.

MileHigh

[Pirate88179]

MH:

I thank you for posting this information.  I also appreciate the drawings that Mark provided.  Even I can now see that Mr. Lenz is still there with us, sort of like gravity.  It appears that, at least for now, like gravity, we will be stuck with him.  It is one of those hurdles that we may never get over searching for something for nothing.  I will not say that there will never be a workaround, but for now at least,  I don't think we are there yet.

Thank you,

Bill

[MileHigh]

Bill:

Thanks for your comments.  Mark is very knowledgeable and he is a great example of using the power of proper scientific terminology and concepts to make his points.  I am a bit embarrassed when it comes to that because I can't do it myself.  Most, but not all, of what Mark discusses I am familiar with because I sat through the classes and did the labs but it was 30 years ago now.  Nor was I really a hard-core academic.  I actually went through a period of about 15 years where I stopped thinking about electronics altogether.  So although most of the time I have a good sense of what is going on, I sometimes struggle with expressing myself properly and understanding things.  For people that are real keeners, they should be reading Mark and Googling at the same time.

Anyway, between my "meat and potatoes" approach and with the help of Mark and others, the real deal about the alleged "delayed Lenz effect" will hopefully be clarified for the vast majority of the experimenters.  I view the delayed Lenz effect to be almost like a virus.  Just like for a few years people were doing CFL projects and stating that "power is coming up from the ground."

One possibility would be to look at setups where people believe that they are manifesting the delayed Lenz effect.  They can present their data here and we can collectively examine it.  If that actually happened you can expect that all of the setups will be explainable using conventional electronics concepts with no undefined "delayed Lenz effect" in sight.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Challenge to all of you:

If you think you have a setup that shows the "delayed Lenz effect" then post your information here and let's discuss it.

Requirements:

1.  Explain exactly and precisely what you mean by the "delayed Lenz effect."
2.  Document your setup with measurements and scope shots showing your data and explaining where the "delayed Lenz effect" is manifesting itself in your setup.

Note:  You can't just show a scope waveform.  You actually have to discuss the details in the scope waveform and explain it.

That's the deal.  Just running a pulse motor and changing the load resistor on a generator coil and observing a speed increase of the rotor and saying, "delayed Lenz effect" will not cut it.  You actually have to show measurements and explain why it is an alleged "delayed Lenz effect."

The issue is that for years now forum members have been talking about the "delayed Lenz effect" as if it were real without even defining it.  It has been used as a catch-all term and it is meaningless.  If you use the term "delayed Lenz effect" when you talk about your setups you are just hurting yourself and preventing yourselves from learning.

MileHigh

[TinselKoala]

One thing that I think is happening is that most of the devices and circuits that are supposed to show the effects that are attributed to DLE are actually so inefficient that the usual tests might be just "running on inefficiency" if you know what I mean.

My "garden hose" example tries to illustrate what I mean. Say you are in the back yard with your garden hose, on full blast, and you have a sensitive flowmeter attached to the nozzle. You're spraying your garden, the sidewalk, over the fence etc. like mad, at full power, and you take a reading on the flowmeter. Now someone comes along with a bucket and collects some of the overspray. Does the flowmeter reading change? Of course it doesn't. Now the person pours the water in the bucket onto the garden where it belongs... so you are getting more water to the garden than before. Does the flowmeter reading change?
Get it? Running on inefficiency.

There is a belief, it seems, that simply shorting an output coil provides the "heaviest" load on a generator system. This may not be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem