Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[Drak]

Could not the error be the other way also?. There is also the fact that the P/in measured is actually lower than what has been measured due to the phase shift-as MH pointed out.

What you have would be reactive power being returned to the source. I would love to know how to actually "use" that reactive power. You still lose that power even though the phase shift is off unless you know how to use the reactive power returned. Only way I know how is to send it back through the meter to the power company, and thats at 60hz (here). At 10khz, I'm still looking. I have fe3O4 ordered to replicate your device, I'm assuming that is what you used. EMJunkie posted a calculator a while back on how to calculate the input power vs phase angle to show the actual power being used.

Thanks again Brad.

P.S. If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

[MileHigh]

Brad:

The X-Y scope display gives you a straight diagonal line if the waveforms are exactly in phase and a perfect circle or oval if the waveforms are exactly 90 degrees out of phase.  It was mentioned because it's a quick way to see a slight phase shift when comparing two ordinary waveforms on your scope display.

To measure the phase shift as precisely as possible with your scope, I will take a crack at it but the real experts might have better ways to do it than me.  For the reference waveform you set the trigger to say a falling edge and the trigger threshold to say 0 volts.  You get the reference sine wave to trigger exactly in the center of your scope display.  For both waveforms you set the vertical gain to a quite high setting.  Then you expand the time base such that you are only seeing a small fraction of the reference waveform.  If you do it right, it will look like a nearly vertical slanted straight line.  Assuming you are comparing this with a phase delayed waveform, that should also look like a nearly vertical slanted straight line to the right of the reference waveform.  You expand the time base as much as possible, and then count the number of divisions between the zero-cross points of the two waveforms.  You then convert that precise measurement of time into the phase shift for the delayed waveform.  For an analog scope, you typically have to turn up the brightness when you do this.

You also need to know the frequency/period of the waveform as accurately as possible.  Assume that you don't have a frequency counter.  To do this you set the time base so there is say 10 full waveforms on the display.  Then you pull out the "X 10" time base button and using your horizontal offset you try to measure precisely how many divisions on your display are occupied by 10 full waveforms.  You then convert that to time and calculate the frequency and period of your waveform.

A person with good bench skills does not necessarily need a frequency counter to measure frequency precisely.  He or she can "stretch" their analog or digital scope display to make as accurate as possible a frequency measurement.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

I would love to know how to actually "use" that reactive power.

The "reactive power" is not usable in the sense that it is not "new" power.  It's not a separate entity from the power that you are supplying to your device under test.  The reactive power is just some of your AC source power that gets "borrowed" and then thrown back at you.  If you are "using reactive power" then you are supplying that AC power yourself from your own AC power source.

[Drak]

The "reactive power" is not usable in the sense that it is not "new" power.  It's not a separate entity from the power that you are supplying to your device under test.  The reactive power is just some of your AC source power that gets "borrowed" and then thrown back at you.  If you are "using reactive power" then you are supplying that AC power yourself from your own AC power source.

Then how would one "return" the "borrowed" reactive power to the source? Measuring the actual active power by measuring the phase angle of the current vs the voltage is kind of pointless if there is noway to return it. Maybe I misspoke and should have said return instead of use, good point. I know you can't return it through mosfets unless there is a trick to it. Thanks MH

[picowatt]

Sorry PW,i may have missed something here?. To what scope shots are you refering?,as the one's i posted last are at 10KHz,and it is the inner secondary(blue trace)that has the higher energy content.

We are both discussing the same scope shots.  The 10KHz you refer to is your piulse repetition rate (actually, the scope's trigger rate) and has little to do with the frequency content of your waveforms.  Sharp edges require higher harmonics, rounded edges, not so much (as per Mr. Fourier).  With a bit of experience, one can look at a rectangular waveform and approximate the frequency content of that rectangular waveform based on how square the edges are (rise time).  Assuming the input drive is fast and sharp (hence, "what does the primary drive look like") and based on the period of a half-sine (a trick that usually works well), I estimate that the frequency content of the inner sec. waveform is rolling off at 40-60KHz and is significantly down at 100KHz.  The outer sec. frequency content appears to be peaking at around 100KHz or a bit more.

Lining up edges with the graticule marks would help make/refine these visual estimations, as well as would presenting only a couple cycles on the screen to allow better viewing of edge detail.  The numbers I provided are only eyeballed ballpark estimations based on "looking" at the waveforms presented, not the numbers in boxes provided by the scope.

The sine sweep I suggested would shed more light on the this.

The self resonant frequency (SRF) of an inductor is the frequency at which inductive reactance equals capacitive reactance.  Below that frequency, inductance dominates, above that frequency, capacitance dominates.  Above the SRF, capacitive effects roll off (load) high frequency content.  A sine sweep, particularly while watching I and V phase, can typically be used to identify the SRF of an inductor.

If I were teaching scoposcopy, I would require everyone to play with an audio graphic equalizer being fed a 2K square wave while watching the EQ output on a scope.  Anyone who has not done so should...

There is more to a scope display than the numbers presented in the boxes.  Heck, your DVM can pretty much display all the "numbers" your scope does (many DVM's even have a frequency counter).  Old farts like me that grew up with analog scopes that were also excellent shop heaters and lunch warmers appreciate the bells and whistles of the numbers provided in the boxes but still look at the waveform presented as being the scope's primary function.  However, as eyes grow older, cursors are greatly appreciated, as are 16 bit FFT's, which are constantly on display and being used around here and that only a digital scope can provide.

Regarding MH's suggestion and the use of your X-Y mode to look at phase, otherwise known as a Lissajous display, the following links may help:

http://www.hobbyprojects.com/oscilloscope_tutorial/phase_shift_measurements.html

http://labs.physics.dur.ac.uk/skills/skills/lissajous.php

Often seen in old sci-fi movies as an interesting waveform to display, the Lissajou does provide real phase shift and frequency ratio information.  But, I will bet there is at least a cursor or other function on your digital scope that will provide the phase difference between CH1 and CH2 as a number in a box, which would likely be more accurate and convenient than using the X-Y mode (Lissajou).  Lissajou displays, however, are really great when you are more so interested in watching phase stability rather than the absolute amount or watching phase shift versus frequency when performing a sine sweep.   


Take care of your health!  Rest, force yourself to drink plenty of fluids, and when you feel like eating, consider hash browns smothered in the yolk of a couple eggs over easy.  Yummy...

PW