Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[MarkE]

Hi MarkE. I think we are on the same page as far as theoretically what range of phase shift can
be expected on the input current to a passive AC circuit.

Good.

However, in practice, as I have shown in my
previously posted scope screen shot, phase shifts on the current up to 180 degrees can be measured in
certain circumstances. Whether that measured phase shift is representative of what is really going on in the circuit is
another matter however. I am inclined to think that the 180 phase shift I am measuring here is not representative
of what is really going on, despite the fact that this is what the scope does measure, as I have already mentioned. 

The very low current and moderate operating frequency suggest that the current monitor is where your trouble is.  There are several ways to find out:  Sweep the frequency, and/or increase the CSR resistance, and/orsource with a waveform that is asymmetric, such as a 30%/70% duty cycle trapezoid.

As far as how I have the scope probes connected on the primary, this is the standard way
of measuring phase shift in an AC circuit, and I have been measuring phase shift for years now.

The conventions I annotated are text book.  Convention is that when the voltage sign across a branch and (positive current convention) current sign through a branch agree, that power is being delivered to the branch.  Your arrows are both reversed to mine which means you should still get the same result as to power direction. The convention that I drew requires no inversions to yield voltage drop across, current through, and power transferred to the presumed load.

My scope probe connection arrangement is not the issue. In the schematic I posted, the arrows drawn on the
schematic represent the scope probes, and the arrowheads are where the scope probe tips are connected into the circuit.

See the comment above.

Thanks for the comments guys. I will continue to experiment with this sort of setup and see where it leads.
This is just one experiment I have done amongst many along these lines, and I have seen odd phase measurements above
90 degrees on a number of occasions in different setups over the years. I think anyone who has done any degree of experimentation
along these lines with transformer circuits with various winding arrangements could also confirm seeing these odd phase shifts under
certain circumstances. There may be a simple explanation, but it is not the scope probe placement, nor is it likely due
to the scope probe or scope probe leads picking up fields around wires and windings in this case, as I have taken careful steps to
rule that out here. Thanks again for the feedback.
All the best...

A picture of the set-up, and a statement of what you are using to measure what would go a long way towards clarifying matters. 

[TinselKoala]

I disagree.  What happens with the probes in the position shown is that the load power measurement is artificially increased by the power dissipated in the CSR.

This I do agree with. The actual voltage across the primary as input load, should be measured with probe reference (scope common) at node 2 instead of node 0. Or, with commons at node 0 the difference between the V_in  (drop from 1 to 0) and the V_csr  (drop from 2 to 0) can be taken to provide the true V_primary (drop from 1 to 2).

Had the scope comon been placed at node 2, then for power into the load, the signs of the voltage and current would oppose, and under those conditions, channel 2 should be inverted. 

Hmm. I thought that I was simply restating the effect you noted in your drawing. You note "drop value is negative" and you have reversed Void's arrow. This results in the 180 degree out-of-phase trace you have shown underneath that drawing.

As it is shown above and in void's drawing, both channels should be uninverted:  Voltage drop from 1 - 2, and 1 - 0, matches polarity with voltage drop from 2 - 0, corresponding to  power transferred through the transformer primary.  That should limit -90 < phase shift < 90.  With no load connected, the phase shift should be well above 45 degrees at moderate frequencies, such as 1kHz. What Void is using for a CSR and how he has connected to it is potentially an issue.

Are you saying that the primary is introducing a 90 degree phase shift, and then the CSR and its connections are introducing another 90 degree phase shift of their own?
It would seem that the inductance of the CSR and its connections must be as high as that of the actual primary then? 

[Void]

The conventions I annotated are text book.  Convention is that when the voltage sign across a branch and (positive current convention) current sign through a branch agree, that power is being delivered to the branch.  Your arrows are both reversed to mine which means you should still get the same result as to power direction. The convention that I drew requires no inversions to yield voltage drop across, current through, and power transferred to the presumed load.

Hi MarkE. You are misunderstanding the purpose of the large arrows in my schematic.
They are actually just representing the two scope probes, with the arrowheads indicating
where the scope probe tips are connected. Standard configuration to measure phase in
an AC circuit.

Just to show that all is correct with my scope and probe settings and connection into the circuit,
(although I have already shown in my schematic that the scope probes are connected correctly),
I wound a primary winding on another ferrite toroid of the exact same type as I have been using
in the above test, and connected the two scope probes onto the primary with a 1 ohm, 5%, carbon film
CSR, with everything connected identical to how I made my measurements above, and, as you can see
from the attached scope screen shot, I have about 90 degrees lagging phase shift on the current waveform,
exactly as would be theoretically expected. Testing to confirm that the scope probes are connected in correctly is
actually quite trivial.

P.S. My scope is not high end so the phase shift may actually be showing a little over 90 degrees, but that
may well be due to non-linearity and inaccuracies in my economy scope.

P.P.S. I have done some further testing into this today, and I am leaning towards these odd phase shifts being
due to inter-capacitances in the circuit such as directly between primary and secondary windings, and from the transformer
windings to the ferrite itself, becoming quite significant at higher frequencies. It may sound strange, but that does appear to be
at least a factor here. By the way, nothing I am seeing with this setup really suggests over unity to me, despite the odd
phase shift measurement.

All the best...

[MarkE]

This I do agree with. (ed CSR drop added to transformer drop) The actual voltage across the primary as input load, should be measured with probe reference (scope common) at node 2 instead of node 0. Or, with commons at node 0 the difference between the V_in  (drop from 1 to 0) and the V_csr  (drop from 2 to 0) can be taken to provide the true V_primary (drop from 1 to 2).

I agree.  Also below, void has clarified what he means with his arrows. So we all agree he has Chl 1 at (1) and Chl 2 at (2) and the scope grounds at (0).  As long as the CSR drop is small compared to the transformer voltage drop, the error isn't something to worry about.

Hmm. I thought that I was simply restating the effect you noted in your drawing. You note "drop value is negative" and you have reversed Void's arrow.

Effectively I have reversed both his arrows to conform to convention of voltage drop across the presumed load branch and current through that branch when it is drawing power.

This results in the 180 degree out-of-phase trace you have shown underneath that drawing. Are you saying that the primary is introducing a 90 degree phase shift, and then the CSR and its connections are introducing another 90 degree phase shift of their own?

I am saying that:  1) The chances of power originating from anywhere other than the signal generator on the left are nil, 2) That any measurements that show power originating somewhere else are almost certainly erroneous, 3) The very low levels across the CSR should be associated with a near 90 degree total phase shift.  4) If the CSR is highly inductive, then it will reduce the measured phase lag and increase the voltage measurement and therefore implied current, both erroneously. 

It would seem that the inductance of the CSR and its connections must be as high as that of the actual primary then?

No, if the CSR's resistance and inductance have the same proportion as the primary, then the CSR degenerates into an effective tap on a lengthened primary.  IE it becomes a measure of applied voltage to the primary.  That would reduce measured phase shift when the secondary is open.

[MarkE]

Hi MarkE. You are misunderstanding the purpose of the large arrows in my schematic.
They are actually just representing the two scope probes, with the arrowheads indicating
where the scope probe tips are connected. Standard configuration to measure phase in
an AC circuit.

Just to show that all is correct with my scope and probe settings and connection into the circuit,
(although I have already shown in my schematic that the scope probes are connected correctly),
I wound a primary winding on another ferrite toroid of the exact same type as I have been using
in the above test, and connected the two scope probes onto the primary with a 1 ohm, 5%, carbon film
CSR, with everything connected identical to how I made my measurements above, and, as you can see
from the attached scope screen shot, I have about 90 degrees lagging phase shift on the current waveform,
exactly as would be theoretically expected. Testing to confirm that the scope probes are connected in correctly is
actually quite trivial.

P.S. My scope is not high end so the phase shift may actually be showing a little over 90 degrees, but that
may well be due to non-linearity and inaccuracies in my economy scope.

P.P.S. I have done some further testing into this today, and I am leaning towards these odd phase shifts being
due to inter-capacitances in the circuit such as directly between primary and secondary windings, and from the transformer
windings to the ferrite itself, becoming quite significant at higher frequencies. It may sound strange, but that does appear to be
at least a factor here. By the way, nothing I am seeing with this setup really suggests over unity to me, despite the odd
phase shift measurement.

All the best...

Any of the prior tests I ave suggested should make quick work of resolving the source of the measured 180 degree phase shift.