Simple questions

[EMJunkie]

Assumptions

Free,, that does not make good business BUT charging for the delivery of "free" is a good business model since "free" does not cost anything

Chris,,

1 unit in and 11 units out means that 11 units went in but only 1 from you,, find the other 10 units and how they came to enter and then you will count 11 units in for 11 units out.

Webby1 - Absolutely no Assumptions on my part, its all hard, backed up, with references, real Science, proveable every day of the week!

Surely this is an assumption on your part however, why would anyone be in the "Business" of selling themself short on Energy? Did the 10 Parts "Cost" You anything?

Absolutely not!!! Units of Energy were provided to You freely!

Thus, these Free Units of Energy can not be counted for in the Cost of Your Input.

Its really simple, and you are over complicating for the sake of saving face, also known as Back Pedling.


P.S: Please read my posts, you have stated the blatantly obvious... I reiterate again for your benifet:

Accounting for, Energy Input, into the System and counting this as part of Your Input energy is just nonsense!

Energy Inputs that is not Your Input, is not of any cost to you and should not be counted as part of Your Input Math. Period!!!

E_{Environmental} = E_Output - E_Input

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

[EMJunkie]

Assumptions

Free,, that does not make good business BUT charging for the delivery of "free" is a good business model since "free" does not cost anything

Chris,,

1 unit in and 11 units out means that 11 units went in but only 1 from you,, find the other 10 units and how they came to enter and then you will count 11 units in for 11 units out.

Also, this is incorrect, you are talking about two different things.

You are talking about total Energy into the System, lets define this as E_Total - Total Units Into a System.

We are talking about the Energy You have to put Into a System, we can define this as: E_Cost - the Units You you put Into the System.

and  E_{Environmental} - Environmental Units that the Environment puts into a System.

Thus:
E_Cost + E_{Environmental} = E_Total <<<--- the total Energy input to a System

and:
E_{Environmental} = E_Output - E_Input <<<--- The Environmental Energy Input to a System (Energy Losses not included here for simplicity)

However:
E_Cost + E_{Environmental} - E_Losses = E_Output <<<--- the total Energy output of a System

If it does not Cost you anything then its Free - Are we agreed on this?

Total Energy Into a System and what You put into a System can be very different.

Example:

You go to the Grocery Store, get 10 Dollars of Groceries, spend 1 Dollar to enter a Competition, at the Checkout you find that you Win 1000 Dollars of free Groceries!!!

Did the 1000 Dollars of Free Groceries Cost you anything?

Well actually, it cost you 1 Unit or Dollar for 1000 Units or Dollars.

You have Over-Unity (More Units (Dollars worth of Groceries) than you started with), 1011 Dollars, or Units of Groceries for only 11 Units or Dollars.


You are confused with Total Energy and the Cost Energy into a System.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

[EMJunkie]

Chris,

My post to you was after your name.

Energy does not care what or who puts it into the system when you are dealing with the energy balance.

Energy is a tool, it is not a real thing,, Energy is the yardstick we use for comparison.

So,, when you identify the 10 units that YOU did not put in, AND where they came from AND how they entered,, now COE is happy,, that is all there is to it.

When you have the 11 units out for your 1 unit in,, what physics will tell you is that there is something, somewhere, making a deposit for you,, the next job is to find it, understand it and then maximize the use of such a thing.

In my sim that is running with 125% output to input,, I needed to find, for myself, what and how that was happening,, I am not in any way saying that it can not happen, only that when it is seen,,, then it needs to be understood and if possible exploited to its full extent.

Hi Webby, yes I mostly agree with this post. What you are terming as "something, somewhere, making a deposit for you" is what I have termed as E_{Environmental}

However, you did say it was not possible:

There is no such thing as Over Unity.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

[Pirate88179]

Webby is 100% correct.

Take solar cells.  If you gave one to a guy that had no idea what they were, and he put one in the sun and measured 6 volts/300mA, he would claim overunity as he had not put anything into this circuit but was getting all of this output.

Then, as Webby said so eloquently, someone explains to this guy that the sun is putting out all of this energy, and his cell is only 9% efficient, and if you add up the sun's input, minus the losses...guess what?  It equals the output of his cell.  So, now that this guy knows this...no overunity...just unity as the laws of thermodynamics dictate.

The above is a simplistic example yet it applies to ANY situation you can come up with concerning an "unknown" energy source.  It has nothing to do with believing in the impossible, or saying..."as far as we know"...it is just simple physics with some semantics tossed in.

The energy comes from somewhere...once you know where...it is no longer overunity.

Bill

[NickZ]

  Of course, as OU is just a misnomer.  The point is that solar panels once bought will produce energy that does not cost you a dime.
However, storage batteries are another thing, as they don't come with a 25 years guarantee, nor are they cheap nor free.

   Once we know how to manufacture energy, "out of thin air" the batteries won't be needed, at all.