Faraday paradox revisited,magnetic field rotation question.

[allcanadian]

@lumen

How many different conditions are there?

There are as many results as there are experiments.

Did you include rotating only the external conductor with magnet and disk stationary?

If the rotating external conductors are in close proximity to the magnetic field then the conductors are similar to the rotating disk/stationary magnet scenario. It should give a similar result even though many may believe it is different. However now we have introduced different emf's being induced along different sections of conductor dependent on the field magnitude and direction. Why would anyone complicate the experiment with a ridiculous number of variables they do not understand and then presume they do?.

Did you include rotating the disk and external conductor with only the magnet stationary?

I'm not sure why I would because we have now introduced multiple variables which obscure the result rather than clarify it and clarity is what we want isn't it?.

What are the results?

There in lies the question and questionable experiments always yield questionable results. If a we take all the complications and distractions out of the equation and rotate only a magnet with no separate disk we get better results. So how is it a magnet can rotate and induce and emf if the field is rotating with the magnet?. It is not the external conductor I can tell you that because the inverse square law disqualifies that premise. You mean to imply the most powerful Faraday generator I have heard of producing 500 MJ wasn't actually inducing the disk but the external conductors... really?.


AC

[lumen]

@AC

Magnetic fields are not stationary in space, how could they be?

If they were stationary then radio waves could not propagate or bounce off things and change direction and the fact that the earth is moving in space (not just orbiting) would cause the magnetic waves to stretch in some direction as they are left behind.

Rotating your magnet above an aluminum plate is NO different than rotating the aluminum plate above the magnet. It's simply a matter of how it's viewed.

I know the results of my tests and can say that without the external conductor your rotating disk will generate no current.  How can you even check it without the external conductor?

This thread is actually talking about two different experiments, a rotating charged disk and (totally different) a rotating magnet or disk in a magnetic field.
One generates a magnetic field and the other generates a current flow.

With the help of an electroscope, it may be possible to detect charge movement due to the rotating magnetic field and never touch the magnet or disk.
That is the real question!

[PolaczekCebulaczek]

Hi guyz

I just performed an cruel experiment:

I wrapped a coil around plastic pipe (thin wire a lot of turns) and put stack of neodymium cylinder magnets inside the pipe (pipe was not much bigger from magnets - everything is tight)
I connected multimeter to coil and set scale to milivolts, I have placed everything on rotating office chair and spun the chair( coil with magnets is in vertical position in the middle of chair)
while rotating chair no voltage is detected on mulitimeter
does i need a lot of RPM to see something? I don't think so.
I also tried this setup with cylinder ceramic magnet from speaker instead of neo, still no voltage.
it seems that field DOES rotate with magnet?

does earth magnetic field is rotating with planet? iF so then where is the induced E field ?

now time for electronic electroscope experiment...

[allcanadian]

@lumen

Magnetic fields are not stationary in space, how could they be?[/size]

As I said an oscillating cork in water can produce a radial wave field however the wave field does not rotate with the cork. The wave field moves with the source however it does not rotate on axis with it. The medium in which the external field exists is distinct from the source which created it. In essence all we need to understand is that the cork is not the same as water, water is not the same as a cork...they are different. This is in fact a phenomena found everywhere in nature and it exists for obvious reasons.


You cannot seem to grasp this simple concept so let me explain it for you. Take a simple magnet in your hands then move it around... observe the results. Now do not move the magnet but only rotate it on axis...observe the results. What are your results?... well when you moved the magnet the exterior of the magnet moved relative to the surrounding space and when you rotated the magnet on axis it did not move relative to the surrounding space. Thus we can conclude moving and rotating on axis are different forms of motion. They are not the same-same, they do not produce the same-same results because they are different.


The only fact of relevance here is that when a magnet rotates on axis it "WILL NOT" induce an emf in nearby conductors including a conductive disk. However when the conductor moves in any way... I repeat any way, then an emf will be induced. This is the heart of Faraday's Paradox which you seem unwilling to address.

If they were stationary then radio waves could not propagate or bounce off things and change direction and the fact that the earth is moving in space (not just orbiting) would cause the magnetic waves to stretch in some direction as they are left behind.

Now your speaking of two completely separate phenomena, 1) a static field moving/rotating and 2) a rapidly changing magnetic field producing Electro-Magnetic waves.

Rotating your magnet above an aluminum plate is NO different than rotating the aluminum plate above the magnet. It's simply a matter of how it's viewed.

The experiment proceeds in three steps:
1) The magnet is held to prevent it from rotating, while the disc is spun on its axis. The result is that the galvanometer registers a direct current. The apparatus therefore acts as a generator, variously called the Faraday generator, the Faraday disc, or the homopolar (or unipolar) generator.
2) The disc is held stationary while the magnet is spun on its axis. The result is that the galvanometer registers no current.
3) The disc and magnet are spun together. The galvanometer registers a current, as it did in step 1.


Actual experiment would disagree and rotating a magnet above an aluminum plate does not induce an emf in the plate. On the other hand rotating the aluminum plate above the magnet does induce an emf in the plate which is in fact Faraday's Paradox experiment. In essence you have just contradicted experimental evidence everyone knows to be true. Obviously it is different otherwise we wouldn't have a paradox would we?.

I know the results of my tests and can say that without the external conductor your rotating disk will generate no current.

I would agree and a closed loop circuit is required for a current to flow however a closed loop is not required for an emf to be induced. In which case you have simply stated the obvious... a current cannot flow if there is no closed loop circuit. It is important to remember the Electro-Motive Force is the Force which causes charges to move and when charges move in closed loops we call this an electric current.

How can you even check it without the external conductor?

It is actually quite easy and when charges move the charge density changes between two regions. This differential charge density is measured as a voltage or an electric field. If there is a measurable electric field which we can measure from a distance with an electroscope then we know some charges have in fact moved.


Do you know what I find most fascinating about the Faraday Paradox?. It is not the experiment in itself because it seems pretty straight forward. It is that most people will go to almost any length and say almost anything to prove it wrong but very few if any have the strength and integrity to prove it is right.


No offence but from your posts I think you would do almost anything to prove this experiment wrong and you simply cannot accept it. You will not rest until you have convinced yourself it must be wrong in some way and your beliefs relating to popular opinion are right. This is exactly the wrong attitude in my opinion and I just don't care either way, I just want to know the truth...period.


AC

[lancaIV]

From the compass to Peregrinus to Faraday:
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/citingDocuments?CC=US&NR=2003222512A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20031204&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

"follower" and idea fellow
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=4&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20140213&CC=US&NR=2014042850A1&KC=A1

From the "Global Dossier"
Non-final-Rejection and applicant arguments - by DVD  wysiwyg
https://register.epo.org/documentView?number=US.201113879591.A&documentId=7-6-US++138795910KP1+
now- after Rejection - left