Magnets, motion and measurement

[sm0ky2]

Ayeaye,


How/why do you conclude overunity from field asymmetry?


1) upon close examination, there is no symmetrical field.
2) symmetry has nothing to do with field conservatism.
3) even though the field is not symmetrical, the two halves are balanced.
as one changes shape or intensity, the other changes inversely to counter it.
i.e. compress one side the other expands, expand one the other contracts.


When one side has a greater intensity the other has a larger 'volume'
To visualize what happens inside the atoms, look back at your magnetic filings
But not at the end you are looking at.....  look at the ends that are away from the field.
the magnet forces one end to angle towards it
But the opposite end angles away, as if there were a virtual fulcrum in the center of the filing.
Atoms do basically the same thing. The atom is the fulcrum the electron field pivots on.
When you approach a magnet with another magnet the weaker one acts like the iron filings.


You can see this amplified if you set up layers of filings
and observe the induced field from the first layer of filings affect the filings in the next layer
Here you see the actual fields of each bundle of filings pivot with the motion of their group.
Groups of atoms similarly make up the parts of the macro field.


When you observe "field lines", this is the spacing between rows of groups of atoms
like the lines formed by the mountain peaks of the iron filings.
the lines are actually areas of no field between the field. Like the gaps in Saturn's rings.
As you move further away from the field, the gaps expand in size and distance between them.
As you compress or contract either side of the field you can see the spacing change
inversely on both sides.


They will never line up perfectly, in a non-superconducting magnet.
(and I have my suspicions that even those can't be perfectly symmetrical)


the groups in the center are bound more tightly and
pivot less than the groups near the outer surface. Even the earth field can tilt them slightly.
any magnetic field  within miles can have an effect, tiny as it may be.
For this reason, when a magnet is made, one side is slightly stronger.
This is usually the north, as a convention of our winding direction.
Field is stronger on the end opposite from the direction of current flow.
If we wind left-handed the south side will have this defect.
if we magnetize with a static or permanent field, the defect will be a combination of
the defect in the original field and the effects of the earth field.


Also: below the saturation of the material, internal hysteresis will tilt the atom groups
out of alignment. causing further field defect.


The internal energy of the field is the combined effect of the atom groups interacting
with each other and with the outside world.
They are set like a spring. Unless you change the internal energy, they will always give
back what you put into them. Irregardless of symmetry.

[sm0ky2]

Edit

[ayeaye]

How/why do you conclude overunity from field asymmetry?

By the asymmetry of the magnetic field i mean this. For the simplicity, look only at one pole, consider only attraction, consider only a small piece of magnetic material such as iron, that attracts to the magnet.

When the strength of the magnetic field is somewhat different in different directions near the pole, then do the following. Move the piece of iron towards the pole (radially) where the magnetic filed is stronger. Then near the pole of the magnet, move it to the position where the magnetic field is weaker. Then move it away from the pole. When doing so, we get additional energy, like the speed of the piece of iron increases from the moment when it started to approach the magnet, to the moment when it moved away from the magnet. Assuming that there is some way to move the piece of iron by that trajectory with a very small friction. Right?

[gyulasun]

ayeaye:

Now you try to whitewash yourself but nobody is your mindreader, what you wrote is what counts. And this is what you wrote:

So you say, then there will be no balancing. Right but, the matter is, magnet can at the same time work as a magnet, and its magnetic material work as a shield. And this magnetic material in the magnet does the shielding, not the magnetic field. The way it shields is then in principle not different from a piece of iron, the only difference then is that it in addition to that woks as a magnet. 

And I explained that permanent magnets have a permeability of near to one, which involves a negligibly small response to outside fields from the magnetic material point of view.
It is obvious that in case of a weak magnet the permeability will increase to way higher than 1  i.e. its magnetic material may start to show an increased response to outside magnetic fields. BUT you did not write about weak magnets above and now you come along with a weak magnet example!  LOL
How should a reader here know what else you may have had in your mind? 

I finish this topic with you, no sense to continue.

Gyula

[sm0ky2]

By the asymmetry of the magnetic field i mean this. For the simplicity, look only at one pole, consider only attraction, consider only a small piece of magnetic material such as iron, that attracts to the magnet.

When the strength of the magnetic field is somewhat different in different directions near the pole, then do the following. Move the piece of iron towards the pole (radially) where the magnetic filed is stronger. Then near the pole of the magnet, move it to the position where the magnetic field is weaker. Then move it away from the pole. When doing so, we get additional energy, like the speed of the piece of iron increases from the moment when it started to approach the magnet, to the moment when it moved away from the magnet. Assuming that there is some way to move the piece of iron by that trajectory with a very small friction. Right?

What you are saying is you "feel" the iron being pushed away from the inducing field at certain
angles of departure?


Or that you "feel" less pull on the way out than on the way in?