Where the OVERUNITY using INDUCTION COILS comes from (eg Joule Thief)

[verpies]

How do you define current if you don't consider it energy?

Electric current is the amount of charge moving per unit of time, e.g. 1 Ampere = 1 Coulomb per 1 Second.

Isn't 'horsepower' considered energy?

No, it is power.  In SI units 1 metric Horsepower is equal to 735.5 Watts. 1 Watt is equal to 1 Joule per 1 Second.
The Joule is the SI unit of energy and work.

Let me ask you something. Do you consider the Kapanadze circuit a scam?

I don't know - his presentations do not provide sufficient measurement data to make that determination.
I am a physicist - not a psychologist.

[tinman]

You do not - you only get more voltage (emf) if the coil is not ideal and not perfectly closed.
...and if the coil is ideal and closed, then voltage cannot be even measured across it.

I have to disagree with your first  statement verpies,and question the second.

Question-Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?

You do not - you only get more voltage (emf) if the coil is not ideal and not perfectly closed.

As you have stated in your answer-if the coil is not ideal,and not perfectly closed,must mean that there is a load across that coil(not perfectly closed=partially closed) that has a resistance value to it,along with the resistance of the !non ideal! coil it self.
In order to increase the voltage across any resistance(the non ideal coil,and the resistance between the !not perfectly closed!coil ends),the current must also increase.

So,the answer to pfrattali's question is yes,the faster a magnet is passed across a coil or inductor,that is non ideal,and not !perfectly! closed,the higher the value of current that is produced.

Second-and if the coil is ideal and closed, then voltage cannot be even measured across it

Dose this mean a voltage(potential difference) dose not exist. Being ideal,and without resistance,would seem to indicate that a voltage(potential difference) dose not/could not exist.

As a potential difference must exist in order for current to flow,dose this mean that the existing current within an ideal coil has no flow?

Lets look at the picture below,where we have an ideal coil shorted(looped).
If we pass a magnet across that coil,will a current then !flow! within that coil?,and will the coil it self then produce a magnetic field like that of a PM ?
If it dose have a current flowing through it,explain how it dose this without a potential difference that is needed in order to have a flow of current.


Brad

[verpies]

I have to disagree with your first statement verpies,

I am surprised because you seemed to have argued the opposite in this thread.

I already had debates on this BASIC subject and I am tired of repeating them.
e.g. I already had this debate with the most difficult opponent (MarkE) here and I eventually won it here (including experimental confirmation).
Please read these links and reply to me if you still want to continue the debate about this subject in this thread.

...and question the second.

Question-Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?

My answer is still "no". The induced current depends on ΔΦ (a change of flux penetrating a coil) not on the speed of that change (or "rate of change") as denoted by dΦ/dt.

As you have stated in your answer

if the coil is not ideal,and not perfectly closed

,must mean that there is a load across that coil(not perfectly closed=partially closed) that has a resistance value to it,along with the resistance of the !non ideal! coil it self.

Yes

In order to increase the voltage across any resistance (the non ideal coil,and the resistance between the !not perfectly closed!coil ends),the current must also increase.

Ah!, but you are forgetting that any induced current, that is allowed to flow by this resistance/conductance, opposes the change of the magnetic flux penetrating that coil. This opposition tends to maintain the total flux level and in the extreme case (the ideal shorted coil) that maintenance is absolute and the level of flux penetrating the coil remains constant. See this video.

If it wasn't so, then you could increase the current circulating in an ideal coil ad infinitum, by repeatedly quickly removing a magnet from it and slowly inserting it back...as illustrated by this absurd machine.

All off these paradoxes arise in people's minds because they insist on analyzing coils with voltage, despite coils being current devices and current sources.
The proper approach to analysis is to start with ideal components first and add the imperfections later.

The concept of current caused by voltage (Ohm's law i=V/R) is not always useful and blindly following it can lead you down the garden path.  Analysis of currents induced in inductors, subjected to changing external flux, is a perfect example of this.  More about that is written here.

[antijon]

Have to say Verpies, I disagreed with you as well, at first.

Basically, you're saying that, for a given coil and magnet, there's going to be a max current that cannot increase based on the rate of change. Only the EMF increases because it's related to current over resistance in a given time.

Like you said, using ohms law is like putting the cart before the horse, and it leads to confusion.

[tinman]

I am surprised because you seemed to have argued the opposite in this thread.

I already had debates on this BASIC subject and I am tired of repeating them.
e.g. I already had this debate with the most difficult opponent (MarkE) here and I eventually won it here (including experimental confirmation).
Please read these links and reply to me if you still want to continue the debate about this subject in this thread.

My answer is still "no". The induced current depends on ΔΦ (a change of flux penetrating a coil) not on the speed of that change (or "rate of change") as denoted by dΦ/dt.
,must mean that there is a load across that coil(not perfectly closed=partially closed) that has a resistance value to it,along with the resistance of the !non ideal! coil it self.

Yes
Ah!, but you are forgetting that any induced current, that is allowed to flow by this resistance/conductance, opposes the change of the magnetic flux penetrating that coil. This opposition tends to maintain the total flux level and in the extreme case (the ideal shorted coil) that maintenance is absolute and the level of flux penetrating the coil remains constant. See this video.

If it wasn't so, then you could increase the current circulating in an ideal coil ad infinitum, by repeatedly quickly removing a magnet from it and slowly inserting it back...as illustrated by this absurd machine.

All off these paradoxes arise in people's minds because they insist on analyzing coils with voltage, despite coils being current devices and current sources.
The proper approach to analysis is to start with ideal components first and add the imperfections later.

The concept of current caused by voltage (Ohm's law i=V/R) is not always useful and blindly following it can lead you down the garden path.  Analysis of currents induced in inductors, subjected to changing external flux, is a perfect example of this.  More about that is written here.

The links you provided,are in regards to withdrawing a magnet from a super conductive ring,and not passing a magnet across a non ideal coil,with a non ideal load attached to it-as per the original question -Quote: Do you not get more current if you move a magnet across a coil faster?

The answer to this question is -yes,you do get more current flowing from the coil,through the load,if a magnet is moved passed the coil faster. The faster the rate of change of the magnetic field,the more current is produced from that coil. This test can be carried out with a single turn coil,and results confirmed.

In regards to SC coils,then my answer remains as it was back in the MHs ideal coil thread,and i see also backed up by MarkE-where was he when i needed him?. I see that you also agree with this-i believe?,in that,when a voltage is dropped across an ideal coil,the BEMF will be equal and opposite to the applied EMF?-the action will have an equal and opposite reaction.

An ideal voltage source has no internal resistance,and the ideal coil also has no resistance,and so,when the ideal voltage source is dropped across the ideal coil,there is no resistance within the loop. There is also the fact that the ideal coil produces an ideal BEMF,and there for,the ideal voltage source was just dropped across an ideal short.
Any change that the ideal voltage source tried to make to the ideal coil,was met with an equal and opposite change.

So my answer remains the same--an extreme current void of voltage,as the loop(ideal voltage source,and ideal coil)has no resistance,and a voltage cannot be measured at any point in an ideal loop.

If we have an ideal coil that is shorted(it's two ends joined together),and you withdrew a PM from it's center,is there any two points within that coil that you could measure a voltage?--but yet we know a current would be flowing.

In your SC ring example,where you withdraw the magnet from the center of the ring,would indicate to me that the SC ring is not SC,or the magnet is weak in strength. If it were in fact SC,then you would not be able to remove the magnet from the ring,as every action would be met with an equal and opposite reaction,where in, any attempt to withdraw the magnet,would see the magnetic field produced by the SC ring push back just as hard as you are pulling on the magnet. Only when the total strength of the two magnetic fields combined is exceeded,would you be able to pull the magnet from the SC ring--we are assuming a very strong PM here.

But in regards to a real coil,then i stand by what i say,and the faster the rate of change of the magnetic field,the greater the value of current flowing from that coil,to the load.

It is also true that the greater the flux depth,or field strength through that coil,while the rate of change remains constant,the greater the current flow through the coil to the load also.


Brad