Kelvin's Water Dropper Thunderstorm - without drops?

[LeoFreeman]

Hello, I was wondering: could Lord Kelvin's (William Thompson's) Thunderstorm device be modified to
eliminate the need for water dropping to build up the static charges?

Conventional wisdom states that the energy produced by the classic Water Dropper experiment comes from
the gravitational potential of the falling droplets. But this seems to ignore the energy it took to create the ions
in the water in the first place. Water ionisation by self-dissociation is actually a manifestation of Zero Point Energy.

Perhaps we can utilize this self-dissociation on a continuous basis without the need for falling water drops?

The setup I have in mind is shown in schematic in Photo 1.

Explanation:
There is a long insulating container of water (TANK).
There are two metal plates (OUTER PLATES) outside the TANK acting as
capacitor plates with the water container in between.
There are two large conductive containers (DRUMS), with the open ends facing each other with a gap
in between and nearly enclosing the TANK. These DRUMS store the build-up of electrostatic charges on their outer surfaces.

Each OUTER PLATE is connected to the opposite DRUM and therefore has the same  polarity and shares some of the
charge of that DRUM.

Just inside the water TANK on each side, there is a corrosion-resistant conductive plate (INNER PLATE)
which is connected to the inside of the nearest DRUM.

[Not sure of which of the following is correct?:]
? These INNER PLATES, being located within and connected to, the nearest DRUM, have no net charge,
since the inside surface of any hollow conductor is neutral, by the Faraday Pail effect. ?
OR:
? These INNER PLATES may have some opposite charge drawn down into them from the nearest DRUM. to balance the charges on the OUTER PLATE. ?

(The OUTER PLATES, by comparison, do acquire some of the charge of the opposite DRUM as they are outside the enclosure of the opposite DRUM,
even though they are located inside the nearest DRUM.)

Not sure of this:
Although the INNER PLATES may have a non-zero net charge, the two sides of each INNER PLATE do
have opposite charges induced by the proximity of the charged OUTER PLATE.

The side of the each INNER PLATE facing outwards towards the OUTER PLATE (and carrying the opposite charge)
is protected from contact with the water, perhaps by gluing the plate to the inside wall of the TANK and sealing around the edges.

The side of the INNER PLATES facing into the TANK (and having the same charge as the nearest OUTER PLATE)
are bare conductive metal and are in contact with the water.

Any charge  on the DRUMS is shared to the opposite OUTER PLATES,
which in turn, cause the same polarity to appear on the exposed surfaces of the INNER PLATES by Induction.

As the water molecules self-dissociate, the resulting ions are drawn to their oppositely charged INNER PLATE surface and are neutralized (?).
The resulting charge imbalance on the INNER PLATES is passed via the black wire to the inside of the nearest DRUM,
and so the charges accumulate, or at least that's the theory! :-)

I hope to finish the apparatus in the next few days to see what if anything, it does.
This is still a work-in-progress as I am still having trouble with leaking water containers
and sourcing expensive materials such as lead flashing for the electrodes.

[lancaIV]

                                                                         FARAD-ays cage
                                                                Einstein-Bose Condensat
                                                                 Condensator/Capacitor
                                                     Lord Kelvin mech. spring/condensator analogon

                   
                                    probably Alvin Marks invention gives more intuitive progression

                                   http://www.rexresearch.com/marks/marks.htm
                                   https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=alvin+marks&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search

[antijon]

Interesting idea, but I thought the self disassociation of water was always in a state of equilibrium? Well I'm no expert in chemistry. This might be like the water dropper where it only takes a small random charge to start the process. I'd like to see the results. But remember that the exterior capacitor plates need to be connected to the exterior of the drum, otherwise they won't be charged.

[LeoFreeman]

                                                                         FARAD-ays cage
                                                                Einstein-Bose Condensat
                                                                 Condensator/Capacitor
                                                     Lord Kelvin mech. spring/condensator analogon

                   
                                    probably Alvin Marks invention gives more intuitive progression

                                   http://www.rexresearch.com/marks/marks.htm
                                   https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=alvin+marks&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search

Thanks for these links; Alvin Marks was certainly a busy beaver!

[LeoFreeman]

Interesting idea, but I thought the self disassociation of water was always in a state of equilibrium? Well I'm no expert in chemistry.
This might be like the water dropper where it only takes a small random charge to start the process.
I'd like to see the results. But remember that the exterior capacitor plates need to be connected to the exterior of the drum, otherwise they won't be charged.

I'm also not sure about the equilibrium of the water; my understanding is that
H₃O⁺  and OH^- pairs are constantly being created and re-united,
at any given point in time you can look at water and see a certain concentration of each ion,
which gives the water a pH of about 7.

I think that the outer plates would acquire the charge of the drums if they are far enough outside
the enclosure of the drum, no matter where the connection points are.
For this reason, two oppositely-charged "Faraday Ice Pails" will short each other out,
even if the connecting wire only touches the (neutral) interior of each pail.

That got me thinking:  Maybe we shouldn't have both inner plates connected to the drums at the same time,
as the two drums would effectively be shorting out via the two black wires, with the water acting as a bridge ?

Therefore, the excess charge collected by the inner plates may need to be discharged to their respective drums sequentially,
to avoid the direct short between the drums through the water tank.