A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator

[ayeaye]

I don't think classical EM is wrong it's incomplete. It does not account for movement of a charge through a Vector Potential field.

Yes it's all finally just about movement of electrostatic charges and electrostatic forces. A result of a dynamic process.

[not_a_mib]

There is no classical induction, no time-varying B fields or line-cutting in this device.  The B field exerts no torque on the rotor.  The hypothetical longitudinal magnetic effect should manifest at the stator corners, where the corner near the rotor should push a nearby rotor current element along its length.  This design is somewhat like a Faraday disk motor, but pushing a current element lengthwise rather than sideways, sort of a viscous drag effect between moving charges.  In classical electromagnetics there is no longitudinal component, so the rotor should not turn.  If you build it and it spins up, you have overturned classical theory.

[ramset]

Hmm//well if anyplace on the net is ripe to advance the understanding ..
its this place here and now.
Note to broli ..
did get a chance to speak with Smudge today ,turns out there are issues with his membership here will try to sort that  with Stefan ... also some moderator discussions [NEW] happening here [hopefully]
for some new direction.
sending you a PM with Smudge contact [with his approval].
I truly hope your hard work and dedication bears fruit ,you are indeed a talented and wonderful fellow.the open source community is fortunate to have you.... and men like you.


with gratitude and respect
Chet K

[Smudge]

The classical forces on moving conduction electrons are at right angles to the movement, but we observe the force on the lattice ions, on the material itself.  Clearly the electrons get dragged sideways within the conductor where they then apply force to the ions via classical Coulomb attraction.  If there is a longitudinal force why do people expect the lattice ions to move under that force?  Classical voltage induction is a longitudinal force on the electrons, do we see that as a driving force on the conductor?  No we see it as induced emf.  Surely any longitudinal effect associated with electron current would merely show up as a change in conductivity, the induction would alter the voltage drop.  Has anyone done a measurement across a stationary ring to see whether the resistance changes slightly when the magnets are placed inside the ring?  Is that resistance asymmetric depending on the current direction?  I think that is a better way to look for the longitudinal effect.  Or stop looking for a motor effect, the heading of this thread says Marinov generator so try driving the ring and look for a voltage.
Smudge

[broli]

The classical forces on moving conduction electrons are at right angles to the movement, but we observe the force on the lattice ions, on the material itself.  Clearly the electrons get dragged sideways within the conductor where they then apply force to the ions via classical Coulomb attraction.  If there is a longitudinal force why do people expect the lattice ions to move under that force?  Classical voltage induction is a longitudinal force on the electrons, do we see that as a driving force on the conductor?  No we see it as induced emf.  Surely any longitudinal effect associated with electron current would merely show up as a change in conductivity, the induction would alter the voltage drop.  Has anyone done a measurement across a stationary ring to see whether the resistance changes slightly when the magnets are placed inside the ring?  Is that resistance asymmetric depending on the current direction?  I think that is a better way to look for the longitudinal effect.  Or stop looking for a motor effect, the heading of this thread says Marinov generator so try driving the ring and look for a voltage.
Smudge

Hi Smudge it's an honor to have you here finally. Your papers are part of my research on the magnetic vector potential as well so it's cool to have the source himself weigh in.


I totally agree with your statement and that is also why I choose "generator" as the topic's name. The motor effect was calculated by Wesley in his paper "The Marinov Motor, Notional Induction without a Magnetic B Field". This then was also referenced by others such as Phipps and you. However I discovered a flaw in Wesley's equation which lead him to believe there would be a torque. I attached the relevant piece in the paper.


First of all it does not make sense as to why a torque on the electrons would make the material itself spin instead of generating a spinning current as you also mention. Second of all he deduced the force for 1 quadrant (90 degrees) and assumed the other 3 quadrants would have an equal contribution, hence he multiplies his equation by a factor of four. And this is where the slip up happened. His reasoning was correct for the first and second quadrant however for the third and fourth quadrant the sign should be reversed, which would render total torque to be 0 if you integrated all around.


For good measure I also added the result of a simulation I'm working on to visualize the A field of magnets (or any circuit for that matter).