Self Charging Leyden

[sm0ky2]

that was actually done in the above video, to neutralize the bottles and enable the manufacturer to still use them.

[argona369]

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[sm0ky2]

?The exterior of the bottles showed no electrostatic voltage except near the neck of the bottle where the metallic ink was absent.?

------when i say the "outside" of the bottle, i mean physically located on the other side of the plastic bottle than is hte Inside.

------now, wether the charged exists on the very exterior surface, or under the ink (which may be more accurate) is really irrelevant.



"It was discovered experimentally that the charge on the bottles could be removed permanently by soaking the bottles in a grounded metal container filled with salt water (1% NaCI). After 24 hours in the salt water, the bottles could be rinsed, dried and filled with shampoo and the discharge problem eliminated. ?

"This to me shows that conduction (not induction) allowed charge migration to drain the
Trapped charge."

--- this may seem that way, but in actually - due to the polarity of the charges the container had to be grounded to allow the charge on the exterior of the bottle (capacitor) to dissipate. It is apparent (though this is just my opinion) that the charge is insulated on the exterior surface of the paint/ink possibly because of the tempering of heating process used to dry it - which is not mentioned in the article.

Remeber now - that electrostatic charges will travel on the exterior surface of an insulator - this being the plastic bottle - which could explain the charge at the neck, where the secondary insulator  (heat-dried ink) was not present.

----The "draining"  process utilized both conduction and induction (charge UN-seperation) to neutralize the bottles.



"And if there was it should have been negative not positive."

The original charge was Positive, causing the paint/ink applied to the bottle to take on a Negative charge - partly because of the electron-structure of the atoms (which is WHY they ionize the bottle to begin with), and partly because of induction aplifying this effect.  This induces a positive charge inside the bottle. sorry if i got the two charges +/- mixed around on you during my earlier posts.


"This part is interesting in that it showa the plate (ink) was isolative and insulative.
And totally blocked the trapped charge from passing through. Leaving in effect
a isolated pole with no corresponding ?other pole? through induction."

-- Yes this would seem to be the case, although it has not been fully substantiated in this particular case, there are other instances where the outer surface of the ink can become insulative - i.e: as i described above.


----HOW do i know the charge is nagative on the outside of the bottle? (assuming we didnt know the original charge as positive)

---  If the ink-charge were positive - 1) this phoenomena would not occur, due to the positive charge in air.
and 2) if it were positive people would get shocked by touching the neck of the bottle NOT when they actually opened it.

[argona369]

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[sm0ky2]

induction can work in either direction depending on the circumstances, and the relative charges of the other materials involved.


an example::

+   ||   -

the + charge wants to go towards the - (electrons attracted to the holes on the other side). This intensifies the EMF directly nearest the bottle, causing the neutral (0) charge zone to expand, further preventing the + to travel to the -

+    |     |    -

During this process some electrons from the + side are taken in by the plastic to fill some holes on the - side, this will occur as long as the EMF is increasing - basically as long as there is a supply of electrons flowing into (or in this case trapped inside) the + side building up a charge and trying to cross over the barrier into the - side.
the plastic possesses both electrons and "holes" to some extent, and eas the electrons travel through the plastic this is balanced out (starting in the center and expanding outwards towards each wall) thus forming a zeutral zone where very few electrons (or holes depending on your perspective) can pass through. This area gets thicker over time as the induction takes place.
This stops occuring once the EMF builds enough strength to widen the neutral-zone in the plastic so great that it prevents the electrons from traveling through. This is commonly refered to as the Depletion Region (describing the charge depletion that occurs there as the EMF builds up on both sides of the insulator).

The paint/ink application process utilizes the molecular negativity of the metal particles, to attract them onto the surface of the bottle, for an even coat, similar to how they paint cars. the metal, being alreayd somewhat negative, takes on a greater negative charge (the ionization on the surface of hte plastic is temporary, while the metal holds the charge indefinately until it is "release")

Also, nothing is 100% insulator, everything conducts to some degree.  Static charges built up on the surface of an insulator will travel across that surface to create an (almost) even charge distribution. When the object is discharged it will travel again from the entire surface - to the point of discharge and onto the object which has a greater (and opposite) static-electric potential. If you dont think charges travel across the surface of an insulator - pick an insulator of your choice and find a material of opposite potential [ triboelectric series ] and test this by creating a charge on one side of the insulator and discharging it from the other side.

There is a  difference between: direct contact induction (which is actually  charge migration/conduction - at a high resistance) and Non-contact induction:::  When the charge does not have a path of travel, but still "feels" the influence of the opposing charge - it induces a charge of opposite polarity on the other side of the barrier, which in effect makes the other charge become as strong as itself (but opposite).  This is important to note because when the two objects are then allowed to discharge to one another (after the proper induction-time factor), the charges will balance each other out to 0 leavint both materials electro-statically neutral.

[note: the metal particles maintain some degree of charge after the bottle discharges, hinting that the charge in the particles may be isolated, similar to electromagnetism, the (isolated) metal can be staticaly charged in a "permanent" sense. allowing for multiple induction chargings on the capacitive system it is adhered to.


Direct contact induction (partial-conduction) - one substance has a static charge that is different fom the other substance, and when in contact- this charge slowly dissipates into the other substance, until the charge is balanced or the other substance cannot take on any more charge (the materials physical properties determine the charge capacity, and the time it takes for this to occur).
 
Non-contact induces Opposite polarity,  Contact induces Like polarity. I know its a confusing process, and all of the factors in this particular case with the shamoo botles are not absolutely known. Therefore much of this scenerio is subject to speculation.


In that time period the most common metals used for this type of printing were nanoparticles of silver, gold, copper, brass, and platnum,. ALL of which are on the negative end of the triboelectric series. making it difficult to impart a positive-sustained charge onto these metals. their atomic structure will over time make them negative again. So it seems that the ink should have had a negative charge, and that this charge was most likely located in the metallic particles nearest the exterior surface of the bottle, (under the ink)