3 HP motor works with 116 V and 0.42 Amp. (But don't have enough power)

[Humbugger]

I believe the simple answer here is that when you lower the current going into any type of motor, or device for that matter, you're going to get less power out.

With regards to these types of pulse motors (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't studied Rotoverter designs well, but I was under the impression that the rotoverter motors were pulsed), or any type of brushless motor (like the type used in computer fans, which use hall-IC's), the current determines the torque, whilst the voltage determines the RPM (to an extent... you have to supply the minimum current to get it to speed, and after that the speed stays relatively unchanged if you continue to add current).

Therefore the RPM's will remain the same with your design, but by lowering the current you lower torque.

Thats just my theory anyways.

@Sataure:  You are on the right track there...I won't elaborate...might get in trouble with the local authorities, if you know what I mean.

Humbugger



@Mem:

I went and looked at the PDF file by the Panacea guys on the link posted by Stefan but the very first statement under the RV section stopped me cold:

It states emphatically and with absolute certain authority that the electrical power consumed by a ten HP motor is always ten HP regardless of the mechanical load on the motor.  After reading that, which is absolutely not true, I lost faith in the whole document. 

I'm sure there is probably some good useful information in there and, if nothing else, by reading it thoroughly you will get an idea of what the writer thinks and expects from the techniques.  Just don't necessarily believe everything you read, because at least some of it is just not the truth. 

I hope you find your answers.  I'm not saying there is no advantage to be gained from using caps on a multiphase motor and running single phase power.  But I am rather wary of many of the claims of huge efficiency gains, especially those attributed to magical zero-point energies brought forth by resonances, etc. 

One of the problems with high Q tuned "resonant" circuits, whether they be purely electrical or electromechanical or purely mechanical is that narrowly-tuned circuits are thrown off very easily by any parametric change.  This absolutely does include the loading of a motor, just as the real "resistive" power loading a parallel "tank" circuit changes its effective Q and may also shift the resonant frequency in some complex systems.

In order to truly optimize the use of resonant techniques, the application should probably involve a constant mechanical load.  You have apparently tweaked the cap values to lowest current draw at no load, but you also need to observe the phase angle of the current and voltage and do some cap value tweaking at the expected and worst case (typically maximum) mechanical load values.

Not knowing exactly what your design goals and system requirements are, it would be wrong of me to speculate on solutions.  I am not an expert on this specific subject of using 3ph motors on 1ph power.  I expect there are engineering compromises involved that may not be so eagerly pointed out or acknowledged by some enthusiasts who are primarily striving and searching for or even outright proclaiming over-unity operation.

I also expect (and would bet my last money) that, in general and given optimal capacitor values, the lower power you draw electrically, the lower mechanical power output will be available at the shaft and vice versa. 


Humbugger

[Mem]

<<Hi there Humbugger,
I fully agree with you as you said "In order to truly optimize the use of resonant techniques, the application should probably involve a constant mechanical load."

Without this I think researcher get's into problems that I got here. When the HP increases beyond 7 and 10 this paramiters may change all together, (which I am only assuiming here)

Sataure, your comments touches the most key points of RV methode that I am expereincing: you said: the current determines the torque, whilst the voltage determines the RPM (to an extent... you have to supply the minimum current to get it to speed, and after that the speed stays relatively unchanged if you continue to add current).

Therefore the RPM's will remain the same with your design, but by lowering the current you lower torque.

Will be nice if we can test a 7 or 10 HP motor with RV circuit to see what the outcome will be specialy under constant load operation.

Mean while I hope we'll get comments from other researchers that will shed more light to our discussion here.

Mem>>

[Humbugger]

Just curious, Mem:

Why do you think scale is a factor here?  It seems intuitively, to me, that scale wouldn't give any change to the basic relationships.  I don't know why it would. 

I guess we're both waiting to hear more opinions and knowledge from someone with some serious insight and experience in this matter. 

Maybe they are all too busy building secret RV generators in their basements and getting rich selling watthours to the utilities!

[Mem]

<<Hi there Humbugger,  
Insert Quote
Just curious, Mem:

Why do you think scale is a factor here?  I have no ideaIt seems intuitively, to me, that scale wouldn't give any change to the basic relationships.  I don't know why it would. Well you could be right on here

I guess we're both waiting to hear more opinions and knowledge from someone with some serious insight and experience in this matter.  Yeah we are

Maybe they are all too busy building secret RV generators in their basements and getting rich selling watthours to the utilities! I don't think so, it just a matter of time. We'll hear from them.
Mem.>>

[wattsup]

I wrote this yesterday and forgot to post it. My wife and son of 18 are leaving next Monday to Compostelle, Spain for an 800 km walk. So I have been busy with their preparations.

Without getting too melodramatic or bogged down by the hereafter, looking at your diagram, you should have only caps between L1 and L3 all in parallel. Your current should be on L1 and L2. Only L# is driven by the caps.

See my photo of my test bench using a 5hp 230/460 1750 rpm at 110 vac driving a 1200 watts 12vdc alternator. The alternator is now removed as I will be using it for my VAR project. I have also tried a 3hp PM.

No, it was not producing OU. Yes I did learn. Yes I will try it again eventually when I have SOME spare time.

The alt is so small, and it's producing of 1200 watts (108 amps) is so high that the torque required to turn it at full amps production is totally horrendous.

Used on a car, this alternator would only require to top continuously the battery so the drag is reasonable unless if you are pounding a 1000 watts car radio (sound propulsion). But as an RV set up, the object is to withdraw the most wattage possible from the generating medium, so you then agree to be exposed to the alternators' maximum torque (or maximum wrath). What a beast.

But basically, do you see the capacitor bank in the background. These are connected in parallel to the L1 and L3 of the PM. You don't really need all these caps. I like to have more then less. You start the motor with no load and switch caps until you get the lowest amp draw. Now, when you start loading the motor, the caps selection at no load is no longer valid so you have to switch in and out other caps until the load can be carried, but always in parallel and only between the L1 and L3.

I have come to the conclusion that Rotoverter requires a large PM running a smaller generator. By using the rotoverter with a 7.5 hp, you get about 3 hp of motive force (or less). Now there is also a relation between the PM rpm rating. If you have a 1750 rpm PM, it will have twice as much torque as the same motor running at 3600 rpm.

I believe there is potential here for OU, But, and notice the capital B, this cannot be accomplished with all mixes of motors and generators. You need a specific proper match from all sides. This is the problem because it's expensive and so varied, so the proper mix is not evident.

I would say the following would be the best match;

PM - 7.5 hp - 1750 rpm under RV
Generator - 5.0 hp at 900 rpm

The PM at 1750 rpm would have maximum torque but since it is running under RV the total HP would drop. The generator at 5 HP and 900 rpm means it has more windings to produce the same current at lower RPM. More winding means the drag is spread out evenly over a larger surface area.

Compare this to my alternator that is very small, produces high amps and high rpm means the drag is much harder. Again what a beast.

So I concede that my current set-up is not ideal and I am sure others are running into the same problems. Yes there are electronic work-arounds out there that you can see on Panacea's web site. Plus you can get more info in the RV section of this forum.

Now here's the fun part.

So, what I do not understand is that if RV is working and producing OU for some, why have they not standardized a perfectly matched system and started to sell them on the market. This is what I would do the next day, the next minute even. People need this now.

It seems that some of the motor manufacturers should be funding this standardization research to get a standard unit out there ASAP. It would be in their interest to sell more motors.

So for me RV is not a universal answer. It requires testing with many combinations to develop a standard repeatable working system. I just can't figure out why this has not been done yet. Either someone is missing the boat, or, the boat sank but nobody wants to admit it. In my view, the latter would be the current case since the former is not yet accomplished.

Of course, the RV guys will debunk this vehemently as they should. So where's the standard system?

- Another Idea -

I have some small 1/4 hp 90 vdc identical permanent magnet motors. I am wondering if the rotors were modified so that portions of the each rotor would loop to the other rotor, the bemf of one would be sent to the the other and vise versa, too see if two motors could run in tandem to turn a same shaft. This way, both motors would not waste the bemf to heat and potentially use less power to run. Just a tought. I presently don't have the time available to try this but one day I will try it.