Back EMF vs Collapsed Spikes.....

[z_p_e]

Well, I guess I stuck my foot in on that one...

@ZPE... I can tell your a good individual, and don't take this the wrong way.. I wish you would read what you, I and others post prior to posting and saying "what?" and "what are you trying to say?"...as it's already all right their, everything you need to know. what more can i say..

By the same token, you should read what you write prior to hitting that "post" button.

Of course I read that first lot of yours several times, and I was unable to ascertain what it had to do with the topic at hand, what it had to do with my prior post, and what it had to do with anything at all. Most of it was nonsense, and off topic. The only point I think I was able to extract from it was that you still believe IK is a form of ou.

Well, as I said before, Tesla had the ability to create both IK and capacitive discharge. If you believe IK is the path to ou, why then did Tesla use capacitive discharge instead?

[Grumpy]

@Grumpy - lol what is MMF?

EMF = Electro Motive Force

MMF = Magneto Motive Force

Tesla used capacitor discharge and hence MMF - Steinmetz showed mathematically that a very large inductor (and hence EMF) would also work.

[wattsup]

@z_p_e

I found that capacitive discharge makes things move faster. I mean if I hit my small TPU mock-up with 12 volts DC from my power supply, nothing much happens, but when I charge a capacitor to 12 volts and discharge it into the same TPU, I can feel the vertical wires flex or kick and I can hear a pop.

Grumpy says an inductor will discharge EMF and a capacitor will discharge MMF. Can you give an example of an inductor that can discharge enough of something to be called a discharge. Would the stator coils of a 3 hp DC motor qualify as an inductor cause I saw this discharge back into our on/off switch and smash it to bits.

[EMdevices]

I am looking for a more basic and fundamental answer to what is happening in a coil.

1) Why is the voltage potential already far far ahead in a coil, what is the voltage potential anyway in a coil?

2) what is the voltage potential (or wave) doing to electrons? as it passes them?

3) what does current do to to the electrons? and how does it effect them during transfer.

4) if voltage is ahead in a coil by 90deg, does it build a magnetic field or is this strictly a combination of current and voltage or just current?


These are the fundamental questions which no one seems to be answering?

I thank you for any responses you can provide!

Fred

Fred, don't listen to us, we will only confuse you!!Ã, Ã,  LOLÃ, 


Here I go:

1) Ã,  The basic inductor equation is:Ã,  Ã,  V = L di/dt
Ã,  Ã, Ã,  What does it mean?
Ã,  Ã, Ã,  It means the rate of change of the current (di/dt)Ã,  is proportional to the applied voltage (by constant L, the inductance)
Ã,  Ã,  So if you apply a step voltage function of lets say 1 V for t>0,Ã, Ã,  and the inductance is L=1,Ã,  the di/dt will be equal to 1, which says, the current is increasing at 1 Amp per second.Ã,  Ã,  The current does NOT lag due to charging up of the "capacitor" like zpe is imagining.Ã, Ã, 
Ã, Ã,  The "lagging" is simply due to this inductive phenomena which is similar to inertia.Ã, Ã,  Let current be equal to velocity and force equal to voltage and you see that if you apply a force to an object it doesn't istantly go 1000 miles/hour or whatever.Ã, Ã, 
Ã, Ã,  It's the way nature operates and equations try to capture this behaviour.
Ã, Ã,  And by the way, the term "lagging" and "leading" are used with more precision when talking about sinusoidal excitation of inductor and capacitors.
Ã,  So if an AC sinusoid of a particular frequency is driving an inductor, the voltage wavform hits a peak 90 degrees in phase before the inductor current hits it's peak, so we say the voltage form "leads" the current in an inductor, or the inductor current "laggs" the voltage by 90 degree phase.Ã,  Again it's all due to this inertial like aspect.Ã, Ã,  I'm sure there could be subtle subatomic/space time explantions for all of this but I'm not an expert in that field.

2) Ã,  The voltage potential simply ACCELERATES electrons.Ã,  Ã,  Force on a charge is simply F= E x q, where 'E' is the Electric field, and 'q' the charge.Ã,  Ã,  However, in a conductor carring DC, the charges do not ACCELERATE, they have reached a STEADY STATE value, but there is an E-field in the conductor.Ã,  What's preventing them from accelerating?Ã,  It's a type of terminal velocity, or drift velocity they reach due to the resitive effect in the wire, it is calculated that the velocity of electrons in the conductor is so small like 1 mm / minute or some other ridiculous slow speed.Ã, Ã,  So how does the message get to the end so fast?Ã, Ã,  Well, we are told that if you push one electron in at one end another one will pop out at the other end, and each other electron inbetween simple shifts over, so there is no need to travers a long length, it's simply a shift.Ã,  And of course, the E-field propages at the speed of light in the conductors (which I realy don't know about, but on the outside it certainly propagates at that speed in free space)

3) I answered that in (2) above.Ã,  But let me clarify, current is electrons or positive charges in motion.Ã,  What your asking is like saying what does flow rate do to the water, or what does windspeed do to the air molecules.

4) No, voltage does not build up the magnetic field in the coil, it's the current that does that.Ã, Ã,  The magnetic field created is in phase with the current in the coil, and it too lags the voltage by 90 degrees.Ã,  So current and magnetic field go hand in hand.

EMdevices

[EMdevices]

@ Libra

I can tell you're on your NMR path again.Ã, Ã,  But I'm telling you man, it's a weak phenomena.Ã,  I was big on NMR a while ago as well but I gave that up.Ã, Ã,  I know exactly what you are talking about, the precession (Larmor frequency) etc..

Believe me, it has it's place, but you're taking it to extremes if you're trying to explain everything with it.

I suggest you read up on Microwave circulators and how they work.Ã,  Your cell phone has one in it.Ã, Ã,  It's all about the precession of the magnetic domains and they create a one way flow around the circulator.Ã,  Like those european circular intersections where everybody needs to go one way (either clockwise or counter-clockwise) You will find a lot of electrodynamics involved and this precession concept.  This is one system where you can definitely measure the precession, but simple NMR produces such a weak field, and in copper, forget it, the ringing you observe on your scope is electrodynamic in nature, classical EM whatever you want to call it.

EMdevicesÃ,