Meyer's WFC concept analysed

[neukin]

I tested on a open unit as the arc scared me.. didnt know if it would arc at anytime but it didnt. That tig welder can be looked at here http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/ they do cost alot but when you use one sitting around after hours at a shop its nice to use    Iv tried 60v 3a and it was really rocking in a open unit, the pulse i cant remember right now but iv messed around and didnt notice any major increase with frequency changing...

The oxide on the plates is interesting, ill have to try on my test unit and see how gas goes. I have a lpm meter on the way so i can better test gas produced rather then looks off mass bubbles 

I use 12v about 12amp with a battery charger and it works good but not near the rate needed. i use 36v and maybe 20amp? for fast production for torch use. I have had my tank produce up to 40psi  in about 1 min at 32.2C a good temp as it seems when its warm i make more hho. I turned off at that point as things can get dangerous and i like my body parts.  I have a permanent magnet  perm132 motor that makes about 30v and not sure of the amp right now (need more dc tools here) but i can spin the motor with a belt on a car and make plenty of power. I spun the motor with a Edrill and read that 30v etc... the motor is from http://www.perm-motor.de/index_e.html  If you look at the generators they sell they make alot more power. i cant afford a generator from them yet. You only have to spin at like 2000rpm for the 30v

[aussepom]

Hi guys stumble across this, I am talking at a forum on some of theses cells yes old Stan did not make much sense I will be pulling it all apart in a very similar way.
His circuits do not make sense when you redraw them and analyse them.
These cells are just big very 'leaky capacitors' well that how I refer to them none of these types of circuit can use resonance, you can only have resonance in an 'AC circuit'
The 'transformers' and chokes' all on the same piece of ion well that ok if you were trying  to build a 'mag amp'  well done nice reading.
aussepom

[Farrah Day]

The 'eureka' moment really is the oxide on the plates which is in essence the dielectric.  Don't take this too lightly as this really is crucial to the operation of the cell as a capacitor.

I had heated arguments with Bob Boyce regarding his cell and the fact that he insisted that his cells worked better when his plates sealed his container, thereby effectively having each cell in its own electrolyte. Bob said it stopped the current bypassing the plates. But this made no sense to me as charged ions would not readily bypass the plates and go the long way around to a more distant plate, they would always be drawn to the nearest plate of opposite charge.

This had me puzzled. Now however, I see now that Bob conditions his electrodes, and whether he realises it or not, what he is doing is creating the dielectric oxide layer.

Now it makes more sense. By sealing each cell, he has in fact a lot of capacitors (oxidised electrodes) and a resistors (electrolyte) in series. If the plates were not sealed he would effectively have another low value resistor in parallel with the series RC cells, which would drastically lower the overall impeadance of his wfc, and hence, greatly affecting the value of any resonant frequencies.

You will not that a Joe cell requires similar conditioning before they allegedly work.  Basically then, you have to create your capacitor!

Hairbear, I had a look at that patent link. Yes Meyer does state an actual diode, but this is about the only thing that it would be hard to get wrong.  As long as it is a high power rectifier diode capable of handling a few amps and decent reverse voltage, then just about anything will do.  I think the 1N1198 can withstand a reverse voltage of around 600V before it would disintegrate. Notice however, that the more complicated circuits, ie pulse generator, etc, are just a labelled box.

The Buz350, mentioned earlier with reference to Lawtons pulse circuit design can handle a maximum continuous current drain of 22 amps, handle voltages up to 200V and dissipate 125 Watts of power. A fairly meaty little beast, but there are many similar power transistors and mosfets that will do the job. The thing is to know what parameters are important in your design. I daresay a lower voltage and current handling device would be ok in most cases, afterall 22 amps is a lot of juice.  It may just be that Lawton had this particular component to hand and so utilised it.

Farrah Day

[aussepom]

Hi yes you make sense but I do differ on the so called coating, electrolysis is an 'oxidising process' any way so in MY opinion by 'roughing up the surface' with sand paper etc' will only expose the ion particles to the electrolyte, SS has a unique quality it will 'self seal' its surface, some grade more than others this is well know in the foundry industry when you are 'casting SS'.
There will be a build up of that 'red stuff' as part of the oxidising process; this will react with any impurities in you 'electrolyte mixture' and this will tend to coat the SS.
I used titanium in my water treatment process that is based on electrolysis.
Archie Blue  had the right approach but is different to my set up as I use different plates one titanium and one titanium coated, all the positives are connected to each other and the same for the negatives as per AB he used a vertical cell I used a horizontal cell, one extra negative plate just like a battery.
AB used all the same material.
Because of my set up for wastewater treatment my electrolyte was 'raw sewage'
With out any power I would get a 0.5volt across one positive and one negative just like a battery.
Using dissimilar metals so the one has a more positive galvo metric electrical charge than the other, and a highly negative galvo metric electrolyte to me helps.
Every metal has a 'charge'.
Oh dear I did go on a bit well I hope that helps .
STANDARD ELECTRODE POTENTIALS
Half-Reaction                                E V
         
Li+ + e-  Li                                            -3.04
K+ + e-  K                                              -2.92
Ba2+ + 2e-  Ba                                      -2.90
Ca2+ + 2e-  Ca                                       -2.87
Na+ + e-  Na                                           -2.71
Mg2+ + 2e-  Mg                                      -2.37
Al3+ + 3e-  Al                                       -1.66
Mn2+ + 2e-  Mn                                     -1.18
2H2O + 2e-  H2 (g) + 2 OH-                     -0.83
Zn2+ + 2e-  Zn                                       -0.76
Cr2+ + 2e-  Cr                                        -0.74
Fe2+ + 2e-  Fe                                      -0.44
Cr3+ + 3e-  Cr                                        -0.41
Cd2+ + 2e-  Cd                                       -0.40
Co2+ + 2e-  Co                                        -0.28
Ni2+ + 2e-  Ni                                            -0.25
Sn2+ + 2e-  Sn                                        -0.14
Pb2+ + 2e-  Pb                                        -0.13
Fe3+ + 3e-  Fe                                        -0.04
2H+ + 2e-  H2 (g)                                   0.00
S + 2H+ + 2e-  H2S (g)                           0.14
Sn4+ + 2e-  Sn2+                                   0.15
Cu2+ + e-  Cu+                                       0.16
SO42+ + 4H+ + 2e-  SO2 (g) + 2H2O    0.17
Cu2+ + 2e-  Cu                                     0.34
2H2O + O2 + 4e-  4OH-                         0.40
Cu+ + e-  Cu                                          0.52
I2 + 2e-  2I-                                            0.54
O2 (g) + 2H+ + 2e-  H2O2                      0.68
Fe3+ + e-  Fe2+                                    0.77
NO3- + 2H+ + e-  NO2 (g) + H2O          0.78
Hg2+ + 2e-  Hg (l)                                0.78
Ag+ + e-  Ag                                       0.80
NO3- + 4H+ +3 e-  NO (g) + 2H2O      0.96
Br2 + 2e-  2Br-                                   1.06
O2 (g) + 4H+ + 4e-  2H2O                  1.23
MnO2 + 4H+ + 2e-  Mn2+ + 2H2O        1.28
Cr2O72- + 14H+ + 6e-  2Cr3+ + 7H2O  1.33
Cl2 + 2e-  2Cl-                                      1.36
Au3+ + 3e-  Au                                        1.50
MnO4- + 8H+ + 5e-  Mn2+ + 4H2O          1.52
Co3+ + e-  Co2+                                  1.82
F2 + 2e-  2F-                                         2.87
          there are some for SS  use the biggest difference depending on your process to get maximum reaction 
but this will depend on what you are trying to achieve                             

aussepom

[hansvonlieven]

So, what if the tap water is not the dielectric - and here comes something important. Ever heard of wet electrolyte capacitors?  They are very uncommon nowadays, an old fashioned capacitor from a 100 years ago, but they are basically electrodes submerged in a liquid (electrolyte) - ring any bells?  Yes, like Meyers wfc, but... and heres the key thing, the electrodes have a layer of oxide on them!

Might be some pennies starting to drop now.  Yes! An oxide layer on the electrodes is actually the dielectric, not the tap water, this is why many people say that the cells need to be conditioned first - they need to produce oxidation on the surface of the electrodes. However, this conditioning is not commonly understood and many people simply think that this helps the bubbles not stick to the electrodes and hence produce more gas. When in fact, the conditioning actually creates the capacitor.  So in effect the wfc is a capacitor (the oxide) in series with a resistor (the water).

Things now start to make a little more sense... don't they!

Farrah Day

G'day Farrah and all,

Excellent post, thank you.

I remember the old wet electrolytics quite well. We were still using them in the 1950's in valve circuits. They were interesting things who had a tendency to leak. Some of the older ones used actually sulfuric acid as the electrolyte. They were usually made from aluminium though copper was not unknown either. The dielectric (oxide) was formed using an electrolytic process.

Which brings me to my point. If the watercells rely on that oxide layer (conditioning layer) stainless steel seems to be a poor choice for cell construction because it is difficult to oxidise. After all stainless steel is specifically designed to resist this.

Maybe we should experiment with aluminium or copper instead. Food for thought.

Hans von Lieven