Meyer's WFC concept analysed

[Farrah Day]

Hi Hans, feel free to use whatever metals you want as electrodes, but bear in mind that metals like aluminium and copper are very electrically conductive in the first place and have a lot of floating electrons just dying to make a run for it when dipped in a conductive electrolyte.  It is in effect the very thin coat (tarnish) on aluminium that protects the metal underneath. Why complicate matters when stainless steel would appear to have the properties we require.  The last thing we want, surely, is a 'battery'.

I know many of you are simply unwilling to let go and dismiss the Meyer patents, but unless you can get past this you will find it hard to progress.  Meyer had no background in science, that is why his electonic and atomic theories are laughable.  In Meyer's 'Hydrogen Fracturing Process' he states clearly that the dielectric constant of water of 78.54 @ 25C is why his wfc is a water capacitor works and bases the principle of operation around this (later incidentally he gives this figure as 78.54 @ 20C).  And yes he would have an extremely good capacitor if this was the case. But, we've all seen his Dune Buggy video, where he clearly states that just about any source of water is ok. Come on, think, why is it so dangerous to use a mains hair dryer whilst sitting in a bath tub of water? Because of the impurities, everyday water is a very, very good conductor even with an applied voltage of just tens of volts. Meyer was saying that many thousands of volts were going across his wfc, whilst almost no current was flowing. It simply does not make sense. Furthermore, I can find no mention of him conditioning his plates.

So Meyer introduces, what he calls his 'amp consuming device'. Problem now is that any highly resistive device, though reducing the current, would also cause the voltage to drop across itself, and not across the wfc where we want it!

Meyer might have planted the seed in your heads, and that's good. But now its time to move on and investigate the wfc in it's own right and forget Meyer's uneducated, contradictory and misguided inerpretations of what was happening.  Forget trying to recreate Meyer's circuits and simply use a known working circuit that will achieve the same thing. Modern components are better and easily available. It is very easy and practical to recreate Meyer's pulses and wave forms with modern circuits. Dave Lawton's circuit is there for everyone - I don't see a problem.

As I see it, the only thing Meyer has got going for him is the fact (if indeed it was a 'fact') that he did actually run a car on a home built wfc.  Meyers jargon and circuits are just an elaborate variation of Puharich's work.

Moving on, then. Another thing occured to me and that is, if we are simply using high intensity static fields to pull apart the water molecule, then in theory at least, the electrodes wouldn't even need to be indirect contact with the electrolyte. Like a Leyden Jar.

Eg. A glass jar filled with electrolyte (water in our case), with an electrode immersed in the electrolyte in the jar, but with the other electrode on the outside of the jar. So the outer electrode could simply be a metal foil wrapped around the jar. We would then have glass as an insulator between the two electrodes. Due to the insulation properties of glass this would surely make for a relatively low loss capacitor. But then I have never seen this tried, so maybe there is a need for both electrodes to be in the electrolyte. Hence, the science is not quite as straight forward or obvious as many people would like to think.

More food for thought.

Farrah Day

[mrgalleria]

Aloha,
I happened to be observing the Meyers videos and saw something very interesting. The new video of Meyers, in what may be the first video of the buggy running on water, is a rear view. In clear view is a very large alternator on the left side of the motor (belt driven) while the stock generator sits in it's original position above the motor. And the news video of Meyer running the table top demonstration distinctly and openly shows Meyer first switching on an electric motor which spins an alternator by belt drive. No one has mentioned this anywhere that I have seen, though HeairBear did touch on the advantages and versatility of using an alternator.
Bill

[Farrah Day]

That link that Hairbear put up above somewhere, showing the guy who has coated his cathodes with an oxide is a very good illustration of what we need to form a capacitor. If you haven't seen it, then check it out.  It does look a hefty coating though and probably unnecessarily thick. Also, I'm not sure it is the cathode that should have the coating, as surely the in the initial oxide formation during electrolysis would have the hydrogen ions going to the cathode and the oxidation occuring at the anode. 

As I mentioned, this oxide layer on the electrodes is key. 

OK, so what in effect we would have then is a SS anode, coated in an insulating dielectric, sitting in highly conductive tap water that is effectively electrically connected to the anode.

I put it to you all now then, that the cathode is actually the water itself, the SS plate (without the oxide coating) acts merely as the electrical connection to the water.

It might all sound a little strange, but it really is all starting to fall into place as far as the workings of cell itself is concerned.

The dielectric on the anode is an oxide only microns thick. Now here is some interesting points:

Some oxides have extremely high dielectric constants, and can infact handle many thousands of volts per square cm, before dielectric breakdown occurs. Very nice.

Add to this the fact that the thinner the dielectric between the anode and cathode, the greater the capacitance (capacitance is inversely proportional to the thickness of the dielectric, ie. the distance between the electrodes) and again things start to make sense. If the cathode was the uncoated SS plate, the capacity of the cell would be very low, because the physical distance between the two SS electrodes is (even at 1.5 mm) relatively great.

But, if the cathode is simply providing electrical connection to the water, (water being the real cathode), then the distance between the the two is only the microns thickness of the oxide. And we now have a capacitor capable of holding a really decent charge.

Capacity is also proportional to the surface area of the electrodes, and hence doubling the surface area of the coated anode will double the the capacitance of the cell. The great thing now is that with the water being the cathode, the size of the connecting SS plate (old cathode), becomes uniportant as far as area is concerned. This can really just be a SS rod.  As the water will naturally immerse the anode, we can concentrate on making the surface area of the anode as great as possible, and be quite happy that our old cathode only needs to be a physically electrical connection to the water.

Without knowing the exact nature of the oxide (and it will no doubt depend on the electrolyte and/or impurities in the water used to create it), its dielectric constant can only be guessed at, which makes calculating the actual capacitance of the cell difficult. However, electronic equipment might well be able to give this figure.

So we have a real electrolytic water capacitor. Now the thing about electrolytic capacitors is that they have a polarity (hence my concern that the guy in the video was connecting his cells up wrong way around) and can be damaged if wired the wrong way around, so this is most likely why only positive pulses are depicted being applied to the wfc.  Though the dielectric oxide layer can be damaged by reverse polarity, the advantage of a wet electrolytic capacitor is that it should be capable of self-healing once the voltage polarity is corrected.

Pieces of the puzzle falling into place a bit at a time.

You might note that I am ignoring the fact that some people think that there is some kind of cavity resonance occuring between the SS electrodes, which my new design of wfc would not be very conducive to. However, a lot has been theorised without any conclusive facts forthcoming, so, taking one step at a time, I'll come to that bridge if or when it needs crossing. Just to say, I'm not convinced by cavity resonance at this point.

Incidentally, I've just ordered the components I need from Maplins in order to build a Dave Lawton pulse circuit. Less than ?30 for everything.  If your serious about this stuff then build Daves cct. I'm used to having to design the veroboard layout myself, from schematics, but Dave has even done this for us. It doesn't get any more detailed or easy than this.

Does Dave Lawton ever look in this forum, or has anyone got an email/contact address for this guy?

Regards
Farrah Day

[neukin]

I thought that was how anyone would use and make the system... with a generator or alternator type unit pumping the power into the hho cell. I just tested a good perm mag motor called the perm132.. its just a motor and it pumps out alot of power. I dont have the money to buy one of their generators but im sure its more efficient. I mounted the perm 132 on a honda motor in the car and ran at given rpms to build a chart. I started at about 1500 and upped 500rpm until 4k. The unit was putting out more then enough power for my cell. I was looking at high powered alternators but they usually supply less volts and more amps.

I plan on putting the complete system on the car soon, so ill let you know how it goes. We have a fully programable ECU so ill be messing with fuel and timing making sure to take full advantage of the hho gas being produced. It will be variable by controlling the power to the cell via the TPS sensor which also makes for a more efficient hho system on a automobile. thus supply more gas for more throttle etc, extra power will be sent to a 48v battery pack so power can be used as needed.

[Farrah Day]

Mr G

Are you saying that the Meyer video shows an additional small petrol driven generator to drive his WFC?

Can you provide a link to this video, as I don't think I've seen that.

Mind you, even if he was using a small generator or a lawnmower/moped engine of sorts, it could still be a very efficient system as many of those 50cc engines will do upward of 200 mpg.  Thinking logically, even if Meyers gas production was super efficient, there must come a point at which it can not keep up with the demands of a car engine unless extra power (more than can be supplied by the onboard alternator) is available.

I've read that many of the Meyer patents expired in June this year and so are now available to the public, but I can't say that I've seen anything that hasn't been around for years.

Farrah Day