Meyer's WFC concept analysed

[Farrah Day]

I've just watched a Meyer lecture video that I'd forgotten about. What a joke. This video lecture, if you've not already seen it, is viewable (top right) on the waterfuelcell forum http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2

This really confirms all my previous statements about Meyers total lack of understanding of science and electronics.  He truly does spout some claptrap in this video. Worth a look just to see the man himself at work, trying to convince his audience he knows what he's talking about.  In this video he talks about the dielectric properties of tap (natural) water and it's action as the dielectric in his water capacitor - which of course is complete and utter nonsense. Open your eyes and don't fall into the trap of thinking this guy knew what he was talking about; it's there on video for everyone to see... he didn't have a clue!

Farrah Day

[twohawks]

EDIT:  Sorry, the following (original) post is my bad/ignorance.  I was not understanding yet about how inductance is being used to suppress current flow in the PWM method.  I am not deleting this however, as it may have some other merit(?), if only to alert some other hapless soul to be paying attention to the inductance application.  I am still interested, however, in what it would be like to use insulated plates... wouldn't that get around all the mucky-muck generated and having to deal with so much annealing in order for the cells to begin to run at higher efficiency? As well as not having to worry so much about inductors for limiting current?  Does anyone find that potentially interesting?
Cheers,
TwoHawks

====original post======
What if....

I am intrigued by everyone's effort, thank you for what you are sharing. Many people's results look impressive (where is Ravi's stuff on this site btw ?)

I am posting to you pioneers (as it were) whom I am grateful to be learning from/with, as I have some notions and questions I would like you to consider that I wonder may be helpful (for us all) to this persuit...

Please forgive my newness to this and limited grasp.  If something I bring up is discussed elsewhere, please point me there.

1. The classic claim seems to indicate the "dielectric" is the water...

2. ...it occurs to me to ponder... if the HHO liberation process is triggered by harmonic frequency resonance applied in/via an inductive field (i.e, thus no reason to run current directly through the water, ever, or so it would readily seem), where such process is accommodated by the H2O molecules naturally aligning due to the presence of a magnetic field [of x?, and does that mean 'in fluxuation" (pun intended)], and then reacting within the/this resonating magnetic field, then it seems to me, well, a couple of things...

a) the way to reduce or null current flow would be to totally insulate all the electrode plates from the water,

b) thus these 'capacitor' plates would have to be able to demonstrate their (electro-)magnetic potential to one another without being actually connected together in a closed electronic circuit (i.e., the plate connections being shorted via their contact in same water). Kind of like how a transformer coupling typically appears, I am wondering.(?)

c) thus, a challenge would be how to hookup insulated plates to a simple PWM (resonator) such that the interaction is kept to soley a magnetic-inductive field that is resonating upon the h2o dialectric, or 'medium' (since this may or may not actually resemble a 'capacitor ...anyone?), that is trapped (and thus aligned also) inbetween the plates?

- Is this making any sense at all?
- I have not seen this being attempted in this way... is anyone attempting this approach method/approach yet?

- Is it possible to setup this type of experiment?,
- and if so, what would the plans look like for such a thing?
Like, How does one go about creating a circuit where there are two (electro-)magnetic resonant plates, insulated from one another (and submerged)? What 'circuit' would each plate be connected to so that they could interact in this proposed fashion?

I hope these questions and thoughts may be helpful to anyone, if there's a truth in there anywhere. I am very inspired by what you all are sharing - thank you.

Please let me know what you think about this. If this is possible, I think I would like to try to mockup an experiment for it. I am looking for direction and some technical enlightenment (on the electronic principles involved) on the notion proposed. 

cheers,
TwoHawks (yes, its my name)
Nevada, USA

[Farrah Day]

Hi TH,

Firstly, 'classic claims' are wrong. Classic claims don't make sense and never did to anyone that understands that tap water is a very 'good' conductor. Classic claims are a continued hindrance to progress. Water is not the dielectric, the oxide layer, Chromuim Oxide to be exact, is.

I could well be wrong, but I'm not at all convinced by the 'harmonic resonance' or 'acoustic resonance' theories.

This is my post from another forum.

Its strange how you can read endless amounts on wfcs, many with conflicting details and non-sensical theories and mindless assumptions, until you become completely overwhelmed by it all.

Then just occasionally you read something (perhaps even something you had read many times before) that suddenly registers and unlocks a door. Something else 'clicks' into place.

Water as the dielectric was always a bug-bear of mine, as I never really thought this possible, or likely... tap water conducts. Then the importance of conditioning of the plates came to light more and more, and with it realisation that the conditioning was actually forming an insulating dielectric layer. Water is not the dielectric.

We have the capacitor now, with water being simply an all encompassing extension of the cathode. Next question then is, how exactly are we getting the water molecule to split and release its component gases?

If the oxide layer is an insulator, forming the capacitor, then it should opposed DC. AC, on the other, hand would pass to a lesser or greater degree, with the capacitor allowing far more current flow at higher frequencies than lower frequencies.

The thing is, we are not providing an AC signal to our capacitor (which is polarised), but rather DC pulses. The capacitor will charge from the DC pulses, so there will be a standing voltage across the dielectric, and as this leaks the pulses will keep topping the capacitor up.

However, this leakage current, will prevent the voltage reaching the 'stress' level needed to physically pull the water apart, unless we can top it up faster than it can leak.

I think that the small current flowing through the wfc is simply the natural dc leakage current of a 'wet electrolytic capacitor', and will likely happen all the time because of the pd across the dielectric. No amount of so-called 'amp consumimg devices' before the wfc will stop this. Only improving the dielectric layer will reduce this.

However, getting the right LC combination and pulse frequency will be critical in restricting current flow through the circuit.

Then, something I read here 'clicked'. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Water_Fuel_Cell

If and when a DC pulse attains a certain level of potential difference across the oxide layer dielectric, then this dielectric layer (not the water) briefly, but catastrophically breaks down. The highly charged plates effectively short out across this dielectric layer. However, the current restricting LC combination won't allow this to happen fast enough. The electrical charges on the plates are unable to form an equilibrium and hence balance the plate charges from within the electrical circuit. Instead, other options are looked for. This being the water. The water molecule is literally pulled apart as it rapidly ionises into OH- and H+ in order to meet or reduce the massive charge deficit on the plates.

When this happens, current through the circuit is not affected much, but a lot is happening to the water within the wfc.

That at least is how I'm rationalising the workings of a wfc ... so far.

Oh one thing about the water you use. Bear in mind that if you use deionised water in a wfc and don't use it regularly, the ss plates will corrode as the protecting oxide layer needs oxygen to be maintained. As it is, the cathode plate might corrode even in use with no free oxygen in the water. Possibly why Rav gets his cathodes corroding so badly, they're oxygen defficient due to hydrogen attraction.

Also, we are relying on the self-healing properties of the dielectric oxide layer to continually repair itself after breakdown. I don't think a plastic coated ss anode will fulfill this criteria.

Worth thinking about.

Farrah Day

[gaby de wilde]

I've just watched a Meyer lecture video that I'd forgotten about. What a joke. This video lecture, if you've not already seen it, is viewable (top right) on the waterfuelcell forum http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2

This really confirms all my previous statements

haha? You mean your prejudgements right?

about Meyers total lack of understanding of science and electronics.

Mah what nonsense, if you would have done your homework you would have known the big joke was that Stan didn't have a clue what he was doing. A crackpot with working results, yes, what a bad day you are having?

The science of calling assassinated inventors cracpots hummmmmmmm. You mean some one who is weird in your world view? Like a person who is the opposite of ordinary to you? And you expect inventors to be more ordinary right? To me this means you have the galaxy upside down in your head. Anyway, his twin brother is a chemist and even he laughed at him. Not in his face of course. But when he got the buggy to work his brother had to revisit his prejudgement.

trying to convince his audience he knows what he's talking about.

He is explaining it in his own words. For all I care he can jump up and down in a banana costume.  The buggy worked, the patents where granted under 101 after a working model was shown then they where classified. There is no way out and you cant win.

Open your eyes and don't fall into the trap

It's cute that you are so worried about us but you don't have to worry. Stan is dead, he is not dangerous being all dead the way he is. You are in the trap where you are still researching but made your conclusions last week?  The technology was screamed to death by the public. The public misbehaved so magnificently that those who wanted him dead had all the time in the world to kill him. That's what happened. Just like the public whined and whined until Yull Brown was dead. And like they whined and whined when Paul Pantone discovered something. Neither Paul nor Yull had any idea what they where doing. But who cares about that when you drive 200 mpg? Carl Diesel was trying to build the same thing then he committed suicide by jumping off the boat to England.  Yeah right! 

In business change can be bad. So business people may opt to kill it. You are a big boy now, you should know about the life of grownups. People get killed for owning a hamburger joint it's not an exotic event.

The effect of this tech should be a rapid decrease in dependency on our monopolists. They want it slowly so that they can raise the rent and other expenses in order to keep us all poor.

The main goal of the industrial revolution was to make peoples garden small enough to keep them enslaved.

It's not hard to see if you are honest.

[twohawks]

Thanks for your response F Day.  Yes I read that in the other thread.

What you are thinking about and what is proposed there I find interesting and worth looking into.  I would imagine it could be somewhat tested by comparing the 'long-term conditioned' cell-type generator to one that is indeed constructed with laminated (protected from the water somehow)  plates.  I mean, wouldn't that tell?

-------------------
I am also having thoughts about the necessity of the tubular design (questioning that). I.e., if breaking the water bonds is due to either the method FD suggests, or the 'more classical understanding' that electro-magnetic-resonation of magnetically aligned water molecules, effectively shrinking and stretching them along their <-- axis until they break, using some resonant frequency... nothing there implies the need for a tubular column of water.  It would seem that plates cut at the relative tetrahedral ratio of the water molecule dimension would suffice well for delivering/sustaining harmonic hi-freq magnetic field resonance. (ref: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hbond.html )

...Although I think I could figure it out after a while, I do not know how to assemble the equation for making the suggested ratio determinations.   If anyone looks into that and figures it out would you please post that here?
   More to the point about what I mean... first let me say that there may be a couple of different ratios to work with...  There is a ratio of the lengths of the bonds from center to point both laterally and longetudinally (sp), then there is the ratio of lengths of the height to the width of the entire tetrahedral structure (I think that might be the interesting one), then there is the consideration of the ratio of lengths taken from the one base side line and one vertical side line.  The professor there only gives us a few measurements to work with, but it should be enough to dissect the whole thing.  (I wonder if there's a golden mean ratio expressed there?)

The ring consideration...
I did however read somewhere, and maybe someone here will know what I am referring to... it was something about how an affected "ring" of a responsive element (in this case water) around a neutrally reactive tube under these conditions ...may hold another causal effect during the reaction.  I.e., a ringed formation of the element under load in this type of cell (the water in this case) not only has a 180 degree (across) (re)action, but also a 90degree (upward) (re)action occuring simulteneously (there is also a toroidal reaction).  I don't know enough about this physics to know what I am talking about, but I bet there's a few here who recognize what I am referring to.  Anyone?

(and I promise to post if/when I run across what provoked that!)

Cheers,
TwoHawks