Muller Dynamo

[hoptoad]

Hi Hoptoad
To make a  resisitive load (not shorted-out coil) resemble or mimic the heavy-handed "usually-lugging" effects of a shorted coil, you would need a resistive load of around 1 or 2 ohms - so a very heavy resistive load....
There have been a few people who have substituted a heavy resistive load like that in their Thane or Romero replications, for the "the shorted coil" effect, and it gives the same speed-up effect as a short, so this again is ALL GOOD...
yes a shorted coil is not making any power at all, but a 1ohm load means alot of power is being made (lots of amps not so much voltage)
And one thing that resembles/mimics a load of around 1 or 2 ohms is a very big UF value capacitor.....so you know where I am going with this eh!
Disconnect that capacitor from the "source" when it hits a load too (two-stage or diode plug type output circuit) ....so the only thing that causes worry (and/or lugging) when load is applied to a discharging capacitor, is the next stage, (or the previous stage) of the "filling-up" of the capacitor...
and if the rotor speeds up when a very big capacitor is filled, then once again, its ALL GOOD...
have the load be a motor, or motor coils, that is spinning the generator rotor..
have two motors run by cap-discharge, and two generators that "speed up" while filling up caps.... fill one with the other...

I have in the past, designed very low impedance adams motors (.2 ohm bifilar coils x 8 core) which returned 30% of the input current to source, or off loaded the same into a useful (12W auto light globe) load, whilst dramatically speeding up and consuming less input in the process. All without any separate generator coils at all. Have fun doing what you're doing, but I think KISS is still the best principle.


Cheers .. keep on motoring.

[crazycut06]

Hi guys @MileHigh @avalon,
So do you think that this guy is  showing OU in his video (which you said is not) only for promotional purposes? So that he could get more attention to sell his kits?    Business as usual? 


Have a nice day! 
Cc

[Liberty]

In both cases however the end result is still the same. No power out. The useful purpose of a generator is to deliver electricity into a useful load. If the addition of a generator onto the drive load of a motor, which, when shorted out, actually increased the torque of the motor to greater than that without the addition of the generator, then it would a great and wonderful thing. It would be considered a useful purpose, if the point was to drive the motor with a greater torque availability than it had without the generator. But the addition of the generator (conventional) onto the drive motor immediately causes more power in the drive motor to be consumed, as it makes it's mechanical inertial demands upon the torque available, with or without an electrical load on the generator output.

The additon of generator coils (with cores - air cores do not exhibit drag) in the alternative generator design (muller, adams, bedini) puts demands on the drive rotor torque by way of drag, until such time as the electrical load is high enough to negate the drag. But the shift in current/voltage phase, when loads are very high or even short circuited, means that the power factor decreases with the increasing load. So while you may get the benefit of reduced drag at higher load, the effective power out is diminishing.

The power factor in a shorted coil is effectively zero, as there is no power out. That doesn't mean that power isn't being dissipated within the coil, it simply means that for useful external purposes, there is no power out to be used. Power factor is considered when measuring (AC) power available/dissipated to a load. But in the presence of short circuit, an external load sees nothing.

The rotor speed up in some generator configurations is merely the negation of the core/s drag. This drag would not exist if they simply were not present in the first place. In other words, the generator is acting as a slight brake to start with, and when the output is shorted the brake is released.

Having said all the above, this doesn't mean that I think there is no benefit from certain alternative generator designs. On the contrary.
Many years of experimenting with open magnetic system motors and generators shows (to me, at least, LOL) that it is easy to achieve a greater power output over a wider range of loads with an open system, as compared to a similar power rated conventional closed system.

But OU is a very different proposition altogether. I haven't witnessed true OU from any motor or generator system yet. Who knows, I've been searching for over thirty years, maybe if I live another 30, someone might crack it. 

I actually like the original muller design in terms of its anti cogging attributes, because most open systems exhibit very high cogging. I built a few mullers in the 1990's along with every possible variation of Adam's motor/generators. Lots of fun, but no elusive OU.

Cheers

"But OU is a very different proposition altogether. I haven't witnessed true OU from any motor or generator system yet. Who knows, I've been searching for over thirty years, maybe if I live another 30, someone might crack it.  "

I agree with you that OU is difficult to achieve.  My magnetic motor design if built the right way, may be a method to achieve this goal.  It would make a model size motor at small fractional horsepower.  So hopefully we will not have to wait 30 years to see an example.  I think the generator project shows great potential that I am working on.  I think I have found a way that will reduce magnetic drag due to Lenz while still producing power (and cogging is reduced too) .  I am making changes from things I have learned through experimentation, to try to correct known limiting loss issues, or at least eliminate known possibilities in order to further extend it's ability.  It is not a normal standard generator, but of a special design of my own.  I may consider making the magnet motor information somewhat more available in the future, to help fund the generator project.  Any new device of this type will not be successful if not funded adequately.

[MileHigh]

Hoptoad:

Thanks for your comments and I can tell that you have a lot of expertise.  I am sure that you are right about the inductance of the coil coming into play at higher speeds and changing the power factor, etc.  It sounds like you have done some pretty exhaustive analysis over the years.

Just to reiterate some themes, if you get a speed up "under load" you have to check how much real power is going into the load.  A hypothetical example might be that the speed up means less Lenz drag - and the reduced Lenz drag when fully investigated may be due to less power going into the load itself which may seem counter-intuitive.

Konehead, note that the impedance matching load for a generator coil is the resistance of the generator coil itself.  So if your generator coil is say 100 ohms, when you put a load resistor of one ohm then much less power is going into the load.

I think it's fair to state that the "speed up under load" craze was simply not a phenomenon that was properly investigated.  It all goes back to my comments about changing the electro-mechanical impedance of the motor/generator/load combination.  These things have to be analyzed in detail, and simply seeing the rotor speed up does not tell you much.

Crazycut06, it is indeed business as usual.  That guy is selling stuff that does nothing significant.  In addition, I have never seen any serious analysis done of a window motor.  My gut feeling is that it has very little torque because you are taking a "real" motor and turning it into a pulse motor.  The fact that a window motor under no load might consume less current than a standard motor under no load at a certain speed means nothing.  It's what happens when you add a mechanical load that counts.

MileHigh

[konehead]

Hi Hoptoad

In Thane's latest long video done at some Universsty in Canada, he does not short the coils, he puts some lights as a load on them to cause the speed up - similar to what I mentioned with the 1 or 2ohm resistive load.

Probably you would "start" at the load, in designing the system backwards-fashion,  to get a speed up effect under loading of coils...what might get speedup with particular amount of  lights might not get speed up with a shorted coil for an example.

Also to everyone:
that video of the rotovertor motor and the "quanta" generator is pretty meak and mild really...no matter the excitement in the speakers voice....I see nothing OU there and he doesnt claim any either actually - but the fact he is trying to sell the generator for $2000 USD makes it worse than just a demonstation that could be improved....he does do really good consturciton and his "stargate motor" is pretty awesome construction too, and performance...
That generator will for sure lug terrible under load, (unless he has it rigged up for some sort of Thane speed-up effect OR he can short the coils at peaks into caps, and let caps hit load in two-stage output circuit with coils discoonected from caps when caps hit load OR he manages to find perfect postioning and strenghts to "backing magnets" behind the coils, that give a speed up like Romeror did..sort of "overwhelming" the lenz-lugging like that)
the battery charging is only voltage-rise too...he needs to put a five-dollar hydrometer into battery to check REAL CHARGE via specific gravity it is the only good way...
the rotovertor motor shown in video draws a huge amount of power and it is not very good really to anyone who has made some decent rotovertor systems work - my latest is 7.5hp Baldor, it runs on .08A at 120V at idle - about 9.6W at idle...later on next day, it went up to .12A I figure bearings bit gritty -need ceramic bearings and/or support in air with magnetic bearing while unit is upright
this low draw too, while spinning a small aircored flat-rotor gemerator I built for it especially - spiinning this rotor with its aircores unloaded,(very well balanced I spent a day balancing it) the draw does not go up at all...
this quanta-G guy has his RV motor up to around a huge 100W And I dont see any load but for slamming some voltage into a battery not necessarily charging it too....

Also that magnetic-coupler is not good idea - he should have that generator direct on the shaft of themotor, and will save lots of bearing loss in the watts input...