Thane Heins Perepiteia.

[hoptoad]

What I am actually saying is that by not following a careful process of complete measurement and analysis you're not going to be able to learn more about this and it will remain foggy. Some people prefer fog because it allows the imagination to enjoy mysteries that aren't really there; others are primarily intent on finding the solution to the mysteries.
PB

I agree .... KneeDeep.

This little mystery deserves the time spent on empirical data collection. I am also eager to see if the response of the motor acceleration is non linear or linear when a graduated varied load is put on the coils, ranging from O/C to S/C. I still think this experiment is greatly related to my own prior experiments, of which you are already aware. But there do seem to be other peculiarities reported in some of the posts which may suggest it is unrelated to the effect I've documented.

The tests you have asked Vince to do, are common sense. Crawl before you walk, walk before you run......KneeDeep

Cheers all.

p.s.
In my own experiments, I was using DC pm shunt wound motors, which have a linear torque versus current/voltage relationship. This makes consumption measurement relatively easy, their are no real surprises, even when using pwm switching, if you know the duty cycle. But induction and series wound universal motors have non linear responses to supply current/voltage, and also phase differences between voltage and current. This makes consumption measurement a little more difficult, and the use of scopes is highly recommended.

[polarbreeze]

polarbreeze, phase angle? What do mean by that or should I ask, what is a phase angle?

Check it out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_%28waves%29

The issue is that if the voltage and current are not in phase, you can't simply multiply them together to get power - you have to adjust for their phase difference. This is the same for our purposes as the concept of Power Factor.

PB

[aether22]

I'm going back to my colour using ways on this one.

PB says:

That is indeed a good question, Aether. Now Vince has figured out how to measure torque, a whole new area of investigation becomes open to us. This is brilliant, well done Vince!

The obvious experiment to do will be, first, to remove the Thane device completely from the system and conduct a characterization exercise on the motor using a simple variable mechanical load (thus removing all electromagnetic loading effect, or aether forces or whatever). Apply the variable mechanical load to the motor. Characterize it over the same range of rpm's that are being observed in the main experiment. Plot on a graph the input current versus torque and speed. This gives an unambiguous measure of the motor's behavior without the device in the picture. Then with the device reinstalled, the performance can be compared against this baseline. The difference will be attributable to the electromagnetic or aethereal impact on the system.


That would be useful, it would help us put numbers to the effect, we would be able to quantify it.
But that will not tell us any more of what is going on, useful yes but not hugely so.
But if we do experiments that give us the limits and mechanisms of the effect that is far more valuable.
We could find out precisely what is going on.

That is of far greater value than knowing the magnitude of the effect under varying conditions.


This would be GREAT - it's completely unambiguous and I'm sure everyone would agree with that.

I am sure you could find a way to disagree.

ADDED: The result will be something like this link http://polk-burnett.apogee.net/pd/dmcs.asp - note that at low rpm it's absolutely normal for torque and speed to rise while current falls. I think we can conclude that the device is simply a magnetic brake after all.

PB

No it is not normal, also no magnetic breaking can possibly explain the results.
of course the generator is working as a magnetic break but that breaking force provibly does not let up when the shafts are connected.

On a slightly different note, someone mentioned quite rightly that Thanes experiment might be showing that the form of the shaft is critical not the magnetic properties.
That a brass rod would still conduct the 'whatever'.

If I may make an alteration to this very plausibly worthwhile experiment, it would be best to carry it out with a non magnetic stainless steel first, something barely attracted to a magnet at all, it will do little to convey a magnetic field of any strength but may provide greater continuity by at least being similar, furthermore a Neo would be well suited to saturating such an extremely low magnetic material so maybe the saturating Neos on the shaft do have a place after all.

[aether22]

Experiments:

Small measured mechanical loads, with and without generator. (as fought for by Jacksatan, it has real merit but is limited in usefulness as it puts numbers on the effect but does not tell us anything new about the effect besides it's magnitude, though some feel that looking at performance curves will be enlightening what it can tell us is limited.
Even more useful results if motor torque is measured as Vince is carrying out.


Energize a coil from the generator and apply it's flux to another motor (or possibly the motor running the generator if isolated with the brass/pvc coupler) and see if it is effected. (possibly rectified and smooth)
Then switch powering it from a conventional source of electrical power which matches the electrical qualities in the previous test to see if it is just the magnetic field or something else in the current.

Update: To replicate the coil and magnet config which may prove critical also try a version where a magnet is attached to the motor shaft with the coil pointing at it's face. (the magnet rotating around it's long magnetized axis like a Faraday generator) Consider using a monopole rotor with this version of the experiment so the generator coils and the one applied to the motor both see the same pole facing them.

These 3 are a progression, if one fails go no further
A: Feed flux from generator into a motor which is not mechanically coupled. (have the shafts as close as possible or even lightly brushing if possible)  It would be hard to think of a reason this would fail but it would be very useful and make various tests asked for by JS & PB far far more effective and less ambiguous.

B: Hold the shaft of the motor under test in the above experiment still measuring it's static torque with varying levels of input from the generator.

C: If it works try effectively the same thing but with with a linear DC motor. (AKA a DC powered coil attracting a piece of steel, try feeding the steel or the coil)

Make an electromagnet or transformer with large hysteresis losses, see if the generator output (aether, back-emf) can lower the hysteresis. (under the theory that the motor power gain may be due to a reduction of energy wasted due to hysteresis)

new note: There are many other tests that can be done if the 'whatever' can leave the shaft and effect other devices, you may test various transformers especially types with a loose coupling, radio reception/transmission and so on.

Amplification of the effect when various shorted coil forms are wound over the shaft. (possibly in series with the gen coils) - aether theory

Amplification of the effect by use of radioactive materials, very high voltage electric fields and UV or Xrays. -aether theory (all of these energize the aether)

New!! Instead of having an air-gap between the motor and generator have a non-magnetic material (one with no or little permeability) rod inserted, one possibility would be a non-magnetic stainless steel, a further idea would be to place magnets to saturate the low magnetic steel material to drop it's permeability to zilch.

Did I miss any?
I would also encourage any notes on possible pitfalls or detailed specific criticisms of any experiments.

Also if you have one of these generators (4 or so people do that this point I believe) and could hence possibly test any of these experiments your feedback is especially valuable, in fact I implore Thane, Vince, Powerunlimited and the other person Thane mentioned who is I think off list but replicated it in half a day to at least give their view of these experiments and hopefully indicate which if any they hope to replicate, if not why not and what they do plan on testing.

Naturally I will implore myself to do many of these experiments when I can. (which is as soon as Thanes generatr and i are at the same address)

[aether22]

In summary (of my opinion expressed throughout this thread anyway) right now we do not have an entirely practical device and it is not clear that it will be practical by simply cleaning it up. (removing losses and improving generation potential)

But while this may not yet be practical it is an extremely useful testbed, what is needed most of all, more than theories is experiments that will clarify the operation of the device, and so as strongly as possible I encourage everyone to come up with, test, debate and bug hunt various experiments because that is where development will come from, it is where the rubber meets the road!

The most important thing that separates this device from all others is the practicality and ease by which experiments can lead to a full understanding and utilization of the effect.

So if you can't preform experiments you can still help out with experiments in various ways.

aether puts on his bossy(er) boots...
So to the extent that anyone will listen to me I'd like to give everyone homework, think of an experiment (or a testable/falsifiable hypothesis) and if you can't then analyze an experiment. (or what the results would mean either way)

Everything else is really just pointless chatter and detracts from the end goal, being pragmatic about this is critical.

This is the only way forward, if you think the above experiments are flawed (and your nick isn't polabreeze) please explain why, if you think they are good but you have better ideas then please suggest them, if you think they are potentially valuable then vote for them.

Let's pull together, get a little organized and focus on experiments that can be done to better understand and utilize this effect, let's try and sort out who is going to test what.

aether removes his (bossy) boots realizing he had grown too large for them.