Thane Heins Perepiteia.

[aether22]

I've looked at this from a theoretical viewpoint and I've come up with a hypothesis which maybe someone could test with a real motor/generator setup. I am assuming that the motor that's being used is a synchronous AC motor. The hypothesis is as follows:

A synchronous motor runs at a fixed rpm which depends on the frequency of the AC supply (and is more or less independent of load). If that frequency is changed, the motor speed will change accordingly to re-establish synchronism. Attaching the "generator" device to the shaft sets up an alternating magnetic field in the shaft of the motor, at a frequency which is a multiple of the speed of the motor (because there are multiple magnets/coils on the generator). This perturbs the alternating field in the motor, delivering an effect equivalent to using a higher frequency AC supply. In an attempt to re-establish synchronism, the motor speeds up.

There are several ways that immediately come to mind in which this hypothesis could be tested on the setups that are already in place. Comments?

Bravo, PB! 
Just the number of magnets/coils should alter the acceleration characteristics...

I'd also like to add a potential complexity... the magnetic (or whatever) "pulses" from the generator mixed with the 60Hz AC in the motor create a 'beat' frequency which the motor is attempting to synch with... and this beat freq'y will be changing as the generator speeds up.

But then again, aether22 and/or hoptoad feel that any feedback magnetic flux/field is way too small compared to the motor's msg-fld to really cause that much difference/effect??

More complexity... will the steady-state RPM be an integer multiple of the 60Hz?

-M

markzpeiverson,

That the flux is too small has nothing to do with why that would not work. (although it is too small, ridiculously so)
First the fact that a synchronous motor has not been tried with this effect, only induction and universal is one problem.
But the greater problem is that the rotating field must be applied to the periphery of the rotor and it must be from a stationary source (a stator, or at least not a co-rotating one).

That is not only required for any force to be generated but if a rotational torque was developed it would violate laws of physics (or at least the rotational version which has been observed to be as true as the linear one) , namely the one (Newton's 3rd) about equal and opposite which applies to torque.

[polarbreeze]

...the flux is too small... ridiculously so...

I assume then that you have measured the flux. How large is it, and how large does it need to be?

...a synchronous motor has not been tried with this effect, only induction and universal...

I was being too narrow in my definition, sorry. In fact, a standard AC induction motor also has an inherent synchronous speed but unlike a synchronous motor, it is allowed to have a degree of slip, which is related to the torque. I realize now that the slip is just a detail and of course the hypothesis can be broadened to include the AC induction motor too. As far as I can see, though, the hypothesis would not apply to DC motors. Maybe Thane could comment on what type of motor(s) he has used in his experiments - and/or maybe others could report on what kinds of motors they have, and have not, observed this effect on.

...the greater problem is that the rotating field must be applied to the periphery of the rotor and it must be from a stationary source (a stator, or at least not a co-rotating one)...

I don't think you've quite understood the hypothesis. The magnetic field arrives in the motor through the shaft and modulates the base field in the motor. It's time-varying but there's nothing rotational about it - of course, it was generated by the rotating "generator" but when it arrives in the motor it's simply time-varying, NOT rotating. I suggest applying sensors to the motor and making observations of what is happening to the magnetic field as the motor rotates. I think we can agree that the device does probably modulate the magnetic field in the motor so a good step forward would be to observe in detail what happens to the magnetic field - and to relate that to what's happening in the "generator".

... if a rotational torque was developed it would violate laws of physics (or at least the rotational version which has been observed to be as true as the linear one) , namely the one (Newton's 3rd) about equal and opposite which applies to torque...

I don't think this violates any laws of physics but perhaps you could share your reasoning?

Added later: I think maybe the way to look at it is that when the "generator" acts to change the effective frequency of the rotating magnetic field, this forces rotor slip (because slip is directly proportional to stator voltage frequency) and so increases torque (which is directly proportional to slip). That's where the torque comes from to accelerate the rotor - it's a direct consequence of basic induction motor theory.

[hoptoad]

"The dog ate my homework" 

.............But sir. I don't have a dog !   

Polarbreeze, that's a fair comment if you believe I'm trying to convince you of something for which I offer no empirical evidence.
But first of all, I'm not trying to convince you or anybody else. It is more preferable that you convince yourself !
Secondly, if I did post empirical data, would you accept it at face value ? I think you would still be skeptical and assume that the figures are fudged. So I'll repeat what I've said on page 8 of my website.

"Please don't take a single word I have to say on this page as explicit "truth ". PLEASE reproduce your own motor/generator experiments as outlined on this page. Please Verify Effects For Yourself!!!"

I have provided a template of the rotor size I used (on page 10), and have given all the details of magnet sizes, core types, rotor material, coil wire gauge and number of turns, type of driving motors, and incremental loading setup.

And as I have previously stated, you don't need to be a genius to build a working model to create the effect. Though it might help to be a genius to adequately explain the effect. 

Don't take my word or anybody else's word for the effects existence and characteristics. Create it yourself. It's easy. 

Please prove me wrong! (or right! )

Cheers from the Toad who Hops 

[polarbreeze]

...you don't need to be a genius to build a working model to create the effect. Though it might help to be a genius to adequately explain the effect...

Hi, hoptoad, I was just kidding of course. I don't feel the need to build one of these myself because so many other people have built them so it does seem apparent that there is something a bit peculiar happening (though nothing outside the laws of physics as we know them). I'm much more interested in figuring out the theoretical explanation for it - that's why I'm such a pain with my questions! In any case, I live only 10 miles away from Thane so I can go look at his setup if I need to.

[ramset]

PB YOU HAVE AN INVITE !!!! you  you Im speechless and jealous you gotta go  Chet