My Bessler Quest

[fletcher]

@ Dgraphic .. Bessler's MT was unpublished by him - John Collins published it recently - Bessler, after being arrested, became paranoid about his treatise [intended for a school of mechanics he was to establish after sale of his wheel] & removed a short series of woodcuts that showed his invention & how it worked - he inserted in their place a page affectionately called the 'toy page' about which he annotates that seekers of his perpetual motion should consult, if they know how to use the toys in a different way - he also says in various places [as Alexioco shows in his attachments form the wiki] that various drawings [woodcuts] within MT show the possibility & impossibility of PM & with a discerning mind one may consult them & eventually find movement - N.B. this progression of clues within notations is a separate issue from the later insertion of the toy page, so they might overlap to a degree - all the figures in MT [as they are] do not work as a self sustaining motion & do indeed show a progression of thoughts & experiments, some from Bessler himself & some acquired by him, but originated by others, to go into his treatise.

As for Besslerwheel members, they are not to different from the members here - they are human afterall with the same foibles, strengths & weaknesses - some have a depth of hands on skills & build experience in things mechanical & some are reservoirs of physics knowledge & reasoning - seldom do members come along that have both skill sets in equal portions to apply to the task - their experience in pursuit of this enigma ranges from days to decades - often the same ideas come up again & again, depending on the above factors, so it requires a bit of patience to be a member - some members choose to open source their thoughts, ideas & build experiences - others prefer to think & build their ideas in confidence, perhaps working with others in a small focus group or such - the reasons for why not everybody is willing to leap on the highest available rock to shout out their latest thoughts is that they have seen & heard it all before with the inevitable delusion & disappointment of failure, they don't wish to publically ride the manic rollercoaster of the PM seeker - this does not mean that they are all sceptics, knockers, doubters & pessimistic nay sayers who don't contribute anything to the discussions, far from it in fact - just that everybody is at a different place on the road that is this journey & sometimes they have company & sometimes they do not - many are just going about their business learning from their mistakes & attempting to come up with a POP before making any unfounded claims - some want to patent the idea [should the POP be successful] while others do not & want to release information immediately to boards like this [that's OK by me] - the ones who want to patent first also have different reasons for doing so - some have solely self interest at heart, some want to protect the idea first then licence it so that they retain control of its commercialisation while still allowing anyone to build one in their garage.

Just like this boards membership it is an eclectic bunch of individuals whose motivations can only be known by them & guessed at, you hope they are honourable.

P.S. I think you are completely wrong about levers & pendulums being the big kept secret - while some members [experienced or not] like one or both as possibilities as part of a working wheel, I think you will find the ideas & principles employed in this search are as varied as the membership is diverse.

[Dgraphic911]

@ Fletcher


WELL SAID!

Thank you for the historical info, I have tried my best to read every available page that i can find about the subject, but still find that some things are speculation on my part.

[Alexioco]

@ Dgraphic .. Bessler's MT was unpublished by him - John Collins published it recently - Bessler, after being arrested, became paranoid about his treatise [intended for a school of mechanics he was to establish after sale of his wheel] & removed a short series of woodcuts that showed his invention & how it worked - he inserted in their place a page affectionately called the 'toy page' about which he annotates that seekers of his perpetual motion should consult, if they know how to use the toys in a different way - he also says in various places [as Alexioco shows in his attachments form the wiki] that various drawings [woodcuts] within MT show the possibility & impossibility of PM & with a discerning mind one may consult them & eventually find movement - N.B. this progression of clues within notations is a separate issue from the later insertion of the toy page, so they might overlap to a degree - all the figures in MT [as they are] do not work as a self sustaining motion & do indeed show a progression of thoughts & experiments, some from Bessler himself & some acquired by him, but originated by others, to go into his treatise.

As for Besslerwheel members, they are not to different from the members here - they are human afterall with the same foibles, strengths & weaknesses - some have a depth of hands on skills & build experience in things mechanical & some are reservoirs of physics knowledge & reasoning - seldom do members come along that have both skill sets in equal portions to apply to the task - their experience in pursuit of this enigma ranges from days to decades - often the same ideas come up again & again, depending on the above factors, so it requires a bit of patience to be a member - some members choose to open source their thoughts, ideas & build experiences - others prefer to think & build their ideas in confidence, perhaps working with others in a small focus group or such - the reasons for why not everybody is willing to leap on the highest available rock to shout out their latest thoughts is that they have seen & heard it all before with the inevitable delusion & disappointment of failure, they don't wish to publically ride the manic rollercoaster of the PM seeker - this does not mean that they are all sceptics, knockers, doubters & pessimistic nay sayers who don't contribute anything to the discussions, far from it in fact - just that everybody is at a different place on the road that is this journey & sometimes they have company & sometimes they do not - many are just going about their business learning from their mistakes & attempting to come up with a POP before making any unfounded claims - some want to patent the idea [should the POP be successful] while others do not & want to release information immediately to boards like this [that's OK by me] - the ones who want to patent first also have different reasons for doing so - some have solely self interest at heart, some want to protect the idea first then licence it so that they retain control of its commercialisation while still allowing anyone to build one in their garage.

Just like this boards membership it is an eclectic bunch of individuals whose motivations can only be known by them & guessed at, you hope they are honourable.

P.S. I think you are completely wrong about levers & pendulums being the big kept secret - while some members [experienced or not] like one or both as possibilities as part of a working wheel, I think you will find the ideas & principles employed in this search are as varied as the membership is diverse.

Very well put
Well, maybe I am wrong or right, I don?t know, but it?s an idea...
I wanted to post so someone may be able to notice something I have not, or put information to it, the toys page has got to have something to do with it, its not there for no reason, but there are so many things, I can only go one step at a time...

[fletcher]

Absolutely - we all can only take one step at a time, until insight comes upon us - in the meantime we try to winnow fact from myth & fallacy & use whatever skills & tools we have & learn from them & others - including any covert references Bessler may have made to different gravity based Out Of Balance [OOB] principles he considered usable to provide torque, once his prime mover force was discovered, of which he mentions almost nothing throughout any of his different publications, but is likely to be in the toy page, in part to help establish his post humus priority, IMO.

N.B. IMO, it is equally valid to try & replicate his wheel performances [using technology of the day] any way you can, as surely the objective is replication of his feats, which may not also mean or support the strict definition of Perpetual Motion per se, but might be legitimately called Free Energy.

[Alexioco]

Absolutely - we all can only take one step at a time, until insight comes upon us - in the meantime we try to winnow fact from myth & fallacy & use whatever skills & tools we have & learn from them & others - including any covert references Bessler may have made to different gravity based Out Of Balance [OOB] principles he considered usable to provide torque, once his prime mover force was discovered, of which he mentions almost nothing throughout any of his different publications, but is likely to be in the toy page, in part to help establish his post humus priority, IMO.

N.B. IMO, it is equally valid to try & replicate his wheel performances [using technology of the day] any way you can, as surely the objective is replication of his feats, which may not also mean or support the strict definition of Perpetual Motion per se, but might be legitimately called Free Energy.

May I ask, what is IMO?
Also, about the toy page, what pictures are on there?
are they all put in to one, like this?