Feynman makes a Bedini Motor

[PMM Dave]

So, if it does not use current to charge a battery, how DOES it charge the battery? Batteries work by storing an electrical charge, and charge = current * time. (Q = It)

Also, energy = charge * voltage   (E=QV)

From this it follows that energy = volts * amps *  time (E = VIt)

The total charge in a battery is usually measured in amp hours, and the total energy in watt hours.

If you have charged a battery to over 14 volts, does that not imply that it IS damaged? A good battery will only go up to 13.8 volts (measured open circuit off load).

How do you know that you have never damaged a battery? Have you measured its capacity (in amp hours), and if so, how?

I am not saying that the Mythbusters machine was an accurate copy of a Bedini machine - it clearly was not. I am just saying that they did not address Bedini's central premise, which is that the target battery can be charged with more energy than was contained in the source battery. Correct me if I am wrong, but Bedini does not claim that his machine will run forever.

Sulfated batteries can be somewhat regenerated by applying a pulsed charge current. This has been known for many decades, and the Bedini machine certainly does this. The machine is basically a mechanical way of generating current pulses. There are, of course, any number of other ways to do this.

Also I have not and do not make any representations whatever about my qualifications - it doesn't matter who I am. It only matters what I say!

PMM Dave

[Groundloop]

@PMM Dave,

It is a oversimplification to say that a lead acid battery stores a charge.

When you discharge a LAB:

The positive plate contains PbO2 and reacts with sulfuric acid to form lead sulfate.
The negative plate is Pb and reacts with sulfate ions to form lead sulphate.

When you charge a LAB:

With energy input the lead sulfate is broken down and with oxygen from ionized water, lead oxside is deposited on the positive electrode and lead is deposited on the negative electrode.

So a LAB does NOT store a charge, it stores an chemical substance(s) on the plates.

Groundloop.

[PMM Dave]

Yes, this is true. In fact there are a number of electrochemical reactions going on, what you have quoted here is an overview of the process.

When the battery is overcharged, some particles of lead oxide become detached and fall off the plates, reducing the capacity. These particles eventually turn into lead sulfate.

When a battery becomes sulfated, a layer of lead sulfate covers the lead oxide, again reducing the capacity and increasing the internal resistance. An intentional overcharge causes particles of the sulfate to fall off, exposing the lead oxide below and improving the performance of the battery. However, it can never get back to its original capacity because some chemicals have fallen off the plate and are no longer available to react. Pulsed charging is more effective at causing particles to fall off the plate because it causes outgassing without causing overheating.

You could say that pulsed charging causes either damage or rejuvenation, depending on if the battery was sulfated before you started.

In any event, each molecule of lead oxide gives out or receives the same number of electrons. So if you put x number of electrons in, you can get at most x electrons back out again. There is no way to ever get more charge out than you originally put in.

Of course, to measure the amount of charge, you have to integrate the discharge current over time. Trying to use open circuit voltage to determine the charge state works only for a good battery at a known temperature. Most advanced battery chargers on the market today have the ability to do this. I personally like the Triton, there are many others.

To the Bedini enthusiasts, I say use the machine to charge a target battery and then measure the amount of charge that is in the target battery by discharging it through a Triton or similar. This charge will always be less than the charge supplied by the source battery.

[WilbyInebriated]

The Bedini "motor" is not so much a motor as a battery charger. The claim is that one battery is charged from another (via the machine), and you wind up with more energy in the charged batery than there was in the source battery. The fallacy is that the voltage on a battery indicates its state of charge. This is not so if the battery is damaged. The Bedini machine damages the target battery by overcharging it. (That is, by exceeding the specified maximum charge current).

wrong, the bedini "motor" doesn't exceed a batteries maximum charge current. it uses very little current at all. it does however use large "voltage spikes". i'm guessing you have never built one.

If you look at the instruction sheet that comes with the battery, it usually says that the battery can be damaged by overcharging - and this is exactly what the Bedini machine does.

how do you know this? have you built one and done such an experiment? can you show us your data?

I like the concept of this scam, because a big complicated machine is used to divert attention from the very simple fact that a battery is being damaged by overcharging. This clever misdirection even fooled the Mythbusters when they tested a Bedini machine. They just watched it operate until the source battery went flat, then said "Myth Busted". They never admitted to investigating the target battery at all, although I am sure that their expert knew all about it.

i like the concept of your scam, talk about something you obviously have no clue about, spout something about the mighty mythbusters, which was an absolute joke of an attempt at a "bedini sg" replication and top it off with it only matters what you say.

[helmut]

So, if it does not use current to charge a battery, how DOES it charge the battery? Batteries work by storing an electrical charge, and charge = current * time. (Q = It)

Also, energy = charge * voltage   (E=QV)

From this it follows that energy = volts * amps *  time (E = VIt)

The total charge in a battery is usually measured in amp hours, and the total energy in watt hours.

If you have charged a battery to over 14 volts, does that not imply that it IS damaged? A good battery will only go up to 13.8 volts (measured open circuit off load).

How do you know that you have never damaged a battery? Have you measured its capacity (in amp hours), and if so, how?

I am not saying that the Mythbusters machine was an accurate copy of a Bedini machine - it clearly was not. I am just saying that they did not address Bedini's central premise, which is that the target battery can be charged with more energy than was contained in the source battery. Correct me if I am wrong, but Bedini does not claim that his machine will run forever.

Sulfated batteries can be somewhat regenerated by applying a pulsed charge current. This has been known for many decades, and the Bedini machine certainly does this. The machine is basically a mechanical way of generating current pulses. There are, of course, any number of other ways to do this.

Also I have not and do not make any representations whatever about my qualifications - it doesn't matter who I am. It only matters what I say!

PMM Dave

Hello PMM Dave

As i know gives a full loadet battery a 14.4 Volt to the meter without load.
A ordinary charger supplies about 15,6V to the Batterie

I will stay with this thread to learn about the Bedini.
Albert and others will supply us with results.

helmut