Roll on the 20th June

[sm0ky2]

@ Exx  -

That siphon up in the air you drew......    The Volume (ammount of water comming out) required to create enough 'suction' to pull water all the way up that straw - is GREATER than the ammount of water entering the chamber at the top. So eventually the tank will run empty, and the water in the straw will fall back down killing the siphon effect.



@ Graham

         I think the things you mentioned which land from a great height without the use of fuel have great huge things strapped to them asses....  umm what do you call those things...

PARACHUTES??  i think yes..?

an airplane (that intends on taking off again in the near future) consumes a lot of fuel SLOWING down, to make a smooth landing. lifting off uses a lot of fuel for a short time. then you are up and can maintain a nice speed for a little cost.  MOST long distance flights, the pilot will SPEED UP once they reach maximum altitude (can fly faster up there), using more fuel, that coupled with the effects of gravity as they drop back down - the plane needs more fuel to slow down and land, then it does to take off. i mean sure, you could shut off the engines at 9,000 feet and try to glide down.... consuming NO FUEL....
probably crash and die landing...
i've met a few pilots in my life that can actually DO that and land...  only one was crazy enough to have WANTED to.......  but thas another story.....

[hartiberlin]

...and then Archers idea as presented (even if incomplete. I have no quarrel with that fact.)
I tried to make things proportionate, but it's still an approximation.

I'll just idle back in the tide waters and wait for the warm jets (any Eno fans out there?)



EDIT:

If you wanna make a toy (my favorite proof method) just convert meters to centimeters, or ?decameters? (american stoner here....I mean a group of 10 cm).

Let's have some fun!

I really wish there was a "groove" icon here.

Hi EXX,
many thanks for the drawing.

But can you please provide an explanation,
how the weights and water are going up and down  ?

Just from the drawing alone it does not get very much clear.

Many thanks.

[exxcomm0n]

@ smoky

That's IF there isn't vacuum present, and in this system there is.

It is just in a static state until more is generated by the volume of water leaving the spout.

That is why they are BIG (comparatively).

It takes a lot of energy to pre-load, but then it recycles the energy.

It also has the time of a complete down/up cycle to refill. That's why the siphon "sip" tube is so small in comparison.

I'm thinking a backflow preventer for the spout valve.

Damn you inquisitive types!

Ya get me working against my previous statement of "no talk how worky"..

[sm0ky2]

@ smoky

That's IF there isn't vacuum present, and in this system there is.

It is just in a static state until more is generated by the volume of water leaving the spout.

That is why they are BIG (comparatively).

It takes a lot of energy to pre-load, but then it recycles the energy.

It also has the time of a complete down/up cycle to refill. That's why the siphon "sip" tube is so small in comparison.

I'm thinking a backflow preventer for the spout valve.

Damn you inquisitive types!

Ya get me working against my previous statement of "no talk how worky"..

there i go again, saying what i think, instead of what people interpret from my thoughts......

let me try this again...    the volume of water exiting the spout required to create a siphoning effect is equal to the entire volume of the "straw".  The straw can only take in / put out so much water at a time,

that is LESS than the ammount of water exiting the spout at any given time.  suppose you had a vacuum EVEN at the exit spout!!  - the water is still falling out,. how are you going to get it back up into the tank to use it again for raising the siphon-water??

[exxcomm0n]

@ Stephan

I deference to the fine accomplishments I see your creation of this site to be, I will break my former vow of silence.

The following verbage was created elsewhere, with other folk.......and it was sometimes almost  too quiet. but it gave me a little time to focus instead of frittering it away else-wise.




Instructions for the 2nd pic as follows:

This is a hybrid.

I tried to label the unit lengths.

Still not what Archer probably has in mind.

The key to abbreviations as follows:
(if they get too cumbersome, copy/paste into notepad and do a search/replace for each term below. This save me typing)

RL = righthand lever = 6M long lever fulcrum at 5:1
LL = lefthand lever = 3M long lever fulcrum at 1:3.25
Ls = lift side
Hs = heavy side (counterweight)
M = meter
L = liter

In this one you'll see that LL is a counterbalanced lever with an inverted 4 sided pyramid container with a valve at its bottom actuated by pressing up on it, or perhaps a release catch at the bottom allowing a side hinged at the top to be released from the bottom, spilling it's contents. The catch is probably better as it looses the entire contents rather than shutting off when the actuator is not in use.
It is 1.5 L capacity (to compensate for loss during travel to fill the RL Ls and make sure it's filled completely. Math will come later, or you can do it and speed up the process).

The shape of the container is just as important on both sides.
LL Ls the pyramid. RL Ls the WIDE balance pan (even if it doesn't look that way in the drawing.)

The sequence of events is (with the RL Hs down [right lever, heavy side down]):

1.) Water fills the RL Ls . (This has to be done manually. I haven't figured out a reservoir type arrangement yet. You could probably use a siphon pump to fill it if you pre-weighted the heavy end of the RL with something, then took it off when the lift end was filled).

2.) The RL rotates counter-clockwise, Ls traveling down, Hs traveling up.

3.) Just before the apex of the RL Hs lift, a catch is triggered to drop 1/2 the RL Hs weight actuating the LL Ls and lifting it.
The rope is fastened to the LL Ls arm @ 1M and it is lifted to it's apex, the pyramid being lifted 6M. (Finding out the cost in energy to actuate the catch is important as it subtracts energy from the lift. The length of the whole pyramid assembly is 1M.)

4.) The RL Ls reaches it's bottom colliding with the 45 degree spill plane and spilling its contents of water.

5.) The RL Ls now travels up due to its counterweight.

6.) When the RL Ls reaches it's apex, the bottom of the balance pan actuates the valve/catch on the LL Ls causing it to spill its contents into the balance pan. The catch on the RL Hs is reset to lift the falling weight again at the lift apex. (Again, what is the cost of the catch!)

7.) Water OVERfills the RL Ls balance pan (to make sure that 1.2L is in it) and it drops, as does the LL Ls in opposite directions.

8.) When both reach bottom, the LL Ls has the time it takes the RL Ls pan to spill, to fill (but what resets the catch? I'm still working on this)

9.) Lather

10.) Rinse

12.) Repeat as necessary

As you see.......still a work in progress.

Post 2


K.......

It's been all quiet on the western front.

I mean, you guys have no comment on this, or what? This has only been viewed 13 times, and I bet at least 1/2 of those were mine.

Maybe you were waiting for the version with measurements, and if so, it's your lucky day.
(I'm going to take a wild stab @ the math too, but don't expect any Steven Hawkings type stuff, K?)

The same abbreviations apply as last time.

The LL has a total length of 4.25M with 1M on one side of the fulcrum, and 3.25M on the other with the pyramid container attached.

The pyramid container HOLDS 1.5kg or, 1.5 liter (since we're talking water it's just the same), and for simplicity, let's have the pyramid container itself weigh 1.5kg for a grand total of 3kg filled.

Now, on our 1M side we have a counterweight. it does the same thing that the static 20kg weight does on the RL. Get's it close to, but not in balance.

What is this number?

I dunno, but I can find out (Where's that damned ruler!).

I do have a regular 12" ruler!!! I'll be damned, and I got pennies!

With a lighter UNDER the the plastic ruler (it's one of the ones that magnifies so it's thick in the middle. I'll try it again w/ the SS (stainless steel) ruler later) it takes 25.5 pennies to balance.
With the SS ruler it takes 26.5 (these are approximations. I did not cut a penny in half). The SS ruler is 13.25" long and I set the fulcrum at 9.75", so not exact, but close.

Now when I add a penny to the long end, it takes another 4 pennies on the short end to tip it, so lets say 3.25 pennies, the same ratio as our lever length.

There is no hard and fast way to say WHAT that weight will be because materials vary like the SS and the plastic ruler, but I know that I need 3.25 on one, and 1 on the other side to balance it again after I equalize it.

So if I put a on counterweight it might still be heavy enough to make it back into the water and reduce the cost to the falling weight energy.
But from balance I bet it'll take at least 1/3 again more to reach the height signified by the gray line.

That still don't mean it'll make the height it needs with the weight fall.

But I just spent some time googling for <gasp> math formulas using "lever class cost physics" to help with the tricky part here and I found this.

http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Mechanics/Mechanical_Powers/Mechanaical_Powers.html

I can't remember the last time I heard "block and tackle".

Any reason why we can't put blocks on the arm and the stationary pulley above it to lessen the cost to the falling weight?

I thought not.

Even straight up pulley energy transfer you'd still get 1kg extra I think, and there's ALL sorts of neat shite you can do with pulleys!

Very Happy

P.S. More bloated pics..........now will someone say something about this please?

P.P.S. Archer, I JUST saw your post as I went to post this.
I haven't looked yet cause I'm hoping that I got it already with that above. Wink

We'll see.........Very Happy