Roll on the 20th June

[exxcomm0n]

K....let's go back to my "cow pie pate" winning entry above.

Lessee........current flowing through a medium (usually wire) creates a field.
According to Wikipedia that field is called magnetic flux or inductance and it is measured in Hernys.

Now to make a magnet you place the appropriate material in an area of heavy magnetic flux, like that above.

That magnetic flux comes from energy (electricity) flowing through a medium.

So magnetic flux comes from electrical energy use. A magnet is magnetized by being exposed to flux. It then becomes magnetized and exhibits the same behavior as the flux.

That seems like a storage media that also can do work IMHO.

Can you have a field without force? Fields radiate from whatever emits them. What force makes them emit to become a field?

You say:

A typical permanent magnet is created through application of an external field (H) which aligns the existing magnetic domains. In doing so, the entropy of the PM material is reduced, and it may be said that some PE is stored as strain in these newly aligned domains. Nothing too fancy here, just energy changing form.

Matter changing form either needs a lot of energy, or gives up a lot of energy.

I wonder what energy changing form needs?
Oh wait, that's right. It needs/uses energy that's usually termed as entropy effect that happens when converting one energy form to another.

So if I create magnets by putting metal bars next to the leads of an arc furnace, I'm not capturing and storing an energy that is usually seen as a by-product and  hindrance in electrical processes?

Did I have to use any extra energy to do both jobs?

Sometimes it's not creating a "free energy", but using the one you have more efficiently.

Help me out here, I'm schtupid about lotsa stuff.

[Bulbz]

Yep there is a whole lotta fuckin goin on, the difference is, my ass ain't sore, because I know who the fuckers are

LOL 

[MrGrynch]

Excomm,

If it helps you any, I view the vacuum as having structure.  The nature of this structure is such that it imparts intrinsic angular momentum to the vacuum structure units.  A 'charge' force is simply a force acting against this disorganized intrinsic angular momentum, causing it to polarize.  Because the structure units are interconnected, any polarization force which occurs on structure units direct adjacent to the moving charge force also polarize structure units adjacent to itself, and so on, until there isn't enough force left to continue the radial polarization.

Magnetism occurs when lattice locked charge source are forced to interact in a way that induces electrostatic stresses during the propagation of the charge source.  This causes them to become squeezed on one end, and "bulge out" on the other.  They are able to polarize a much larger area surrounding the point charge source.

So, to answer your question from my perspective, you absolutely cannot have a field without a force, because the presence of a field represents a propagation of some sort through the vacuum, and it requires force to facilitate propagation.  The force that make all thing emit fields of particles is the intrinsic angular momentum of the vacuum, which is duly compressed, twisted and/or stretched in the composition of matter and radiant energy.

That's my take on it, anyway.

-Dave

[legendre]

K....let's go back to my "cow pie pate" winning entry above.

Lessee........current flowing through a medium (usually wire) creates a field.
According to Wikipedia that field is called magnetic flux or inductance and it is measured in Hernys.

I sincerely hope that's not a verbatim quote from Wikipedia.. in any event:

The flow - or flux - of electrons through the conductor produces a field; the field, when interacting with other magnetic materials produces a force. Inductance is is related, but inductance is not the same thing as a magnetic field.

So magnetic flux comes from electrical energy use. A magnet is magnetized by being exposed to flux. It then becomes magnetized and exhibits the same behavior as the flux.

That seems like a storage media that also can do work IMHO.

It's not an unreasonable statement - in fact, I would tend to agree. Problem is, the actual amount of stored energy in a permanent magnet is quite small.. if you were able to design a machine which used the PE stored in the magnet to perform useful work, you'd find that as energy storage goes, a magnet is a very poor battery.

Can you have a field without force?

In concept, absolutely. But the the real real world, it would be difficult if not impossible to find a field, magnetic or gravitational, that is not producing some force with respect to another object. That said, these forces may be so infinitesimally weak as to make detection a daunting task indeed. 

Fields radiate from whatever emits them. What force makes them emit to become a field?

Not necessarily any force.. but rather a flux. Take a superconducting electromagnet for example, in which a standing current flows continuously around a loop. It's a superconductor, so there is no resistance - so the current does no work - yet the magnetic field is constantly present.

You can see that the Super EM is quite a bit like a PM - there is a flux and a field, without recourse to constant external energy input. The only difference being, that in the PM, the flux is composed of virtual photons rather than electrons as in the Super EM.

So if I create magnets by putting metal bars next to the leads of an arc furnace, I'm not capturing and storing an energy that is usually seen as a by-product and  hindrance in electrical processes?

Did I have to use any extra energy to do both jobs?

Depends on your definition of 'extra'. If your existing process (firing a spark gap) is wasteful enough that it will continue to function, after a small amount of energy is tapped to produce a new PM, then no - you don't need any additional energy. But don't conflate such a situation with the anomalous production of 'free' energy.

Sometimes it's not creating a "free energy", but using the one you have more efficiently.

I'm all for that!

Help me out here, I'm schtupid about lotsa stuff.

Not sure what to say, other than I'd advise you to avoid taking any instruction in physics from a certain individual.

-L

[onesnzeros]

Careful, now.. magnets and masses are sources of magnetic and gravitational fields, respectively. It's only when these fields interact with a second object that a force is produced.

Otherwise, I have little to disagree with!

-L

nicely put now we're cooking with gas.....

onenzeros