Roll on the 20th June

[capthook]

The only thing I know is I DON'T KNOW since I don't have a real world comparison.

Therein lies the problem.....

I can't believe I'm taking the time to reply to this AGAIN..............

I could provide additional links and data all day - they would say the same as the 3 examples I provided... and for some reason... the DATA isn't enough to appease you.  How much does it take??

And as to the other 2 links you provided that you say I "ignored"....

http://www.buchmann.ca/Article2-page1.asp
Of NO value - it doesn't discuss ANYTHING relevent to the topic

http://www.powerstream.com/Compare.htm
Look at the Watt-hr/kg column.  This provides the energy density data.  What do you see?
LiIon = 135 Watt-hr/kg
LiIon has a MUCH GREATER energy density than any other type.

So - that's 2 links YOU provided that provide data supporting my claim and negating yours. And 1 link that provides no data.  And 2 more sources that I provided further supporting my claim.

4-0 - (not that it's about keeping score).  If you have DATA to support your claim (as has been the same request to Archer) please supply it.  However - you will be unable to - as the premise is WRONG.

You can believe the data - or not -

Now - HOW ABOUT THAT WHEEL? 

[ramset]

NO Chets still stuck on the lever [didnt Archer say he was going away till tuesday] PURE POWER  Please help [seriously]
PURE POWER I just looked at ARCHERS vid again there are NO CONTROL RODS the pick is four or so inches in from the end    I want your help to understand why his claim of   1  unit in  20  units out on a 5-1  lever means nothing in doing work ?  are you saying this claim is not true?   or are you saying   so what I can do that better  Chet   oh well library is closing [cant wait to get home]

[exxcomm0n]

Therein lies the problem.....

I can't believe I'm taking the time to reply to this AGAIN..............

I could provide additional links and data all day - they would say the same as the 3 examples I provided... and for some reason... the DATA isn't enough to appease you.  How much does it take??

And as to the other 2 links you provided that you say I "ignored"....

http://www.buchmann.ca/Article2-page1.asp
Of NO value - it doesn't discuss ANYTHING relevent to the topic

From the page:
When studying the characteristics relating to battery state-of-health (SoH) and state-of-charge (SoC), some interesting effects can be observed. Unfortunately, these properties are cumbersome and nonlinear, and worst of all, the parameters are unique for every battery type. This inherent complexity makes it difficult to create a formula that works for all batteries.

<snip>

The evolving lithium ion battery

The Li-ion battery has not yet matured. According to Moli Energy, a large manufacturer of Li-ion batteries, the chemical composition of Li-based batteries changes every six months. New chemicals are discovered that provide better load characteristics, higher capacities and longer storage life. Although beneficial to users, these improvements wreak havoc with battery testing equipment that base their quick test algorithms on fixed parameters. The following paragraphs explain why these changes in battery composition affect the results of a quick tester.

The early Li-ion batteries, notably the coke-based variety, exhibited a gradual drop of voltage during discharge. With newer graphite-based lithium-ion batteries, flatter voltage signature is achieved. Such batteries provide a more stable voltage during most of the discharge cycle. The rapid voltage drop only occurs towards the end of discharge.

A ?hardwired? tester looks for an anticipated voltage drop and estimates the SoH according to fixed knowledge that is available as a reference. If the voltage-drop changes due to improved battery technology, erroneous readings will result.

Different metals for the positive electrode alter the open terminal voltage. Manganese, also referred to as spinel, has a slightly higher terminal voltage compared to the more traditional cobalt. In addition, spinel ages differently from cobalt. Although the cobalt and spinel systems belong to the Li-ion family and its identity is unknown to the user, differences in readings are likely when the batteries are quick tested side-by-side.

The Li-ion Polymer has a dissimilar composition to the Li-ion and responds differently when tested. Instruments capable of checking Li-ion batteries may not provide reliable readings when quick testing Li-ion Polymer batteries.

So you're telling me that all of OUR examples were hip to and allowed for the above statements?

I don't know the guy that wrote the page.
I don't know the guy that did the tests.
So I don't take their word, or that of an advertiser that much to heart.

I laid out the challenge simply.
"Show me a comparison using a consumer grade battery of the same form factor and voltage"

.....the I proposed the materials.
"1 set of Lithium, 1 set of alkaline, and a flashlight.

Care to rise up to it?

http://www.powerstream.com/Compare.htm
Look at the Watt-hr/kg column.  This provides the energy density data.  What do you see?
LiIon = 135 Watt-hr/kg
LiIon has a MUCH GREATER energy density than any other type.

So - that's 2 links YOU provided that provide data supporting my claim and negating yours. And 1 link that provides no data.  And 2 more sources that I provided further supporting my claim.

4-0 - (not that it's about keeping score).  If you have DATA to support your claim (as has been the same request to Archer) please supply it.  However - you will be unable to - as the premise is WRONG.

And the challenge was like that stated above. You don't compete, you can't score.

If it's that important, do what (but not AS) PureP did and take the time to use physical machinery to prove your point.

Too bad he used the "control arms", he was so close to converting me.

You can believe the data - or not -

And you can choose to take me up on my challenge.
Politicians and advertisers lie to me hourly. Be the exception that I believe OU represents.

Now - HOW ABOUT THAT WHEEL? 

Yes, I'm anxious for the unveiling on the 20th too

We have nothing to bitch about before then.

You think it won't work, which is fine. But then why spend ALL THIS TIME trying to debunk it when it could be much more easily accomplished by just waiting?

You seem a bright bulb, what the matter with that time schedule?

Oh! Please allow me the courtesy of addressing ALL my questions as I have done for any reply that I've made.

Thank you. Your cooperation is appreciated.



[/quote]

[libra_spirit]

OK,

I see some here have suggested that on a perfectly balanced wheel if we place two weights at 180 degrees on each side the wheel will not turn on its axle to the 3 - 9 oclock alignment with considerable power being released! Then why will a balance arm find an exact level to ground position under the exact same situation? How is a wheel different from the balance arm?

If we look at water, we see a similiar operation, the surface of the water becomes exactly all the same height.
This brings in a force that operates as a volume or distance cubed bouyancy in the opposite direction.

The free hanging balance arms with equal weights will in fact act more like water, and seem to be responding to a distance cubed force that is merely weaker then gravity, but still able to alter the balance of the scales arms as if it were a bouyant force.

We can see that gravity is supposed to be exactly equal on both weights, and the angle of the curve of each weight is the same but in opposite inclines of the wheel.

Some say the balance will equalize but the wheel will not. Some say it is gravity causing the balance and yet it cannot be. Both are the same distance from the center and both objects have the wame weight.

What if gravity is a distance squared force operating against a weaker antigravity that is a distance cubed force?
Is it the distance cubed force or "bouyant antigravity" that causes the scale to balance two weights that are equal weight.

I have the advantage that I have already witnessed the result, and can no longer claim the balance will not move to the 3 - 9 oclock alignment, and make a judgement of its actual power. I want to know what is moving it there. It lifts one side and drops the other side with no aparent energy gain or loss, adding momentum to the system.

As a perfect balance is not lowering its overall weight by moving to a balanced position at 3 - 9 oclock, there is no lower position for the system involved in this model at the axle. The overall weight of the entire system is not dropping into a more stable position, the energy to turn this balance is not kenetic energy from gravity. It is something else.

Dave L

[capthook]

You seem a bright bulb

as do you... (except when it comes to battery technology )

And no need to quote the whole page of the link...
It doesn't discuss ANYTHING about alkaline batteries or energy density or battery performance.  It is a piece about the difficulties in designing a commercial battery tester that can accurately test all types of LiIon batteries...not what the data of actual battery tests are...

And for the last time - why the heck would I waste my time running experiments to PROVE to you what is fact and supported even by the DATA THAT YOU PROVIDED?

Rather than take my word - or believe the data - YOU do the test if it's the only way to PROVE to yourself the truth.  Learning by doing beats the hell out of taking someone's "word"

All the best....

CH