Radiant Barrier

[z.monkey]

Howdy Y'all,

The radiant barrier and insulation project is finally done!

Whoo Hoo!

On a hot summer day when the ambient air temperature is 104 my attic is hanging around the same temperature.  Previously the temperature in the attic was getting up to 140 to 150 degrees!  The ArmaFoil is an excellent product and it made a significant difference in the temperature in the attic.  We'll see if it makes a significant difference in my electric bill...

Blessed Be Brothers...

[rbisys2]

Greetings,

I've been selling and installing RB for over 30 years. This technology is another gov/indust'y suppressed prod going back over 50 years.  I have a roll of RB that was manuf'd about 1927.  Most of it well documented.

The reason for the suppression is for the very reason you like it so much.  My experience here in the St. L area is that by just substituting RB for a low 10 % eff FG or cellulose you will save about 335% winter/ 50% summer.  Foam is about 20% eff.


< Information and opinions by George Himmeger : The data enclosed is taken from a mechanical engineering handbook along with opinions from thirty years field experience

EXPLORING THE LEGITIMACY OF CLAIMS OF CHARACTERISTICS, TEST PROCEDURES AND ?R? RATINGS FOR THERMAL     INSULATIONS USING MECHANICAL ENGINEERING HAND BOOK DATA AND FORMULA

Fiber glass FG - Radiant Barriers RB

Confusion about the performance of various insulation materials is not a recent phenomenon.  Some of the confusion comes from the fact that various materials control heat energy transfer according to the specific physical properties of the materials and their assembly for use.  Another problem is that large manufacturers, with government sanction, literally control the methods used to test their product and competing products.   This has been an ongoing fight for over fifty years in this country.  Some products, commonly used here, are not allowed in other countries because of low performance and serious health issues.  The most common testing problems are:

(1)   The tests do not reflect actual ?installed summer / winter conditions?, which can reveal up to fifty percent difference in performance compared to ?accepted tests?.
(2)   Most tests favor conductivity resistance and limit the effects of radiant energy.  Most homes have about 12-15% conductive surfaces, about 7% is convection and air spaces accounting for up to 80% radiant energy gain or loss.
(3)   Some tests do not reveal the serious performance degradation from condensation,   actually storing and increasing heat flow, and how it affects the interior humidity levels. 
(4)      Some tests do not reveal possible mold and other problems.
(5)     Some tests, or labeling, do not reveal the health problems due to toxic chemicals.  This information is classified as proprietary information and given only to the government.
(6)   The tests or labels do not reveal the ratio of material to air volume This ratio can be as low as 1% mass to 99% air volume allowing radiant energy to travel through like an open door, plus air infiltration.  The exception to this is radiant barriers which rely on the air space to perform efficiently.  If insulation tests were performed with the best interest of the consumer at heart, there would probably be only two insulations available to the consumer. 
(7)   The other subject ignored by the bulk insulation manufacturers is the approximate 80% heat gain/loss in buildings through radiant heat, infrared energy. This can be expected because most bulk insulations are only about 10 ? 20% efficient in rejecting radiant energy, compared to about 97% for radiant barriers. 
(   The  ?R? factor for bulk insulations are based on the recipical of a ?u? factor, a conductive test.  The efficiency of RBS are based on a ?k? factor.   You cannot obtain a ?R? value from a  ?k? factor.
The independent, non competitive, method presented here is based on long established data of energy exchange between two surfaces, ceiling/floor, at a given Delta T? (temperature difference between two surfaces) and will tell you what amount of heat energy is radiated into and out of the home summer and winter.  This method depends on no tests and incorporates the characteristics of the insulation, building materials and the effects of any climate condition.  It can be performed by anyone with a thermometer.  Conventional ?R? factor calculations cannot tell you this, due to the problems mentioned above and that the calculations are usually for material only.  With ?R? factors you can calculate for one set of condidtions and then find out the calculations had no reference to what is actually going on in the structure.

The common denominator for all insulations is; what is the temperature of the drywall and the floor it is radiating to?  This ?in situ? method incorporates all the variables because the drywall temperature determines your heating / cooling costs.  You can use either Btu calculations or temperature calculations.  You can see why the manufacturer of low efficiency insulation will not want to use this method.  The drywall emission rate, about 90%+, is used in the following chart because that is the most commonly used material.  The source of this information, and the following chart, is from an emissivity chart and formula of a mechanical engineering handbook.  You may not be familiar with this source of information.  It is a manual of materials charts, characteristics, formulas and numerous other factors used by engineers to manufacture most every thing you use.  For many professional engineers it is the engineer?s ?bible?.

THE HUMAN FACTOR  The average home owner believes that the air temperature is the dominant factor in comfort.  This might be true if it wasn?t for the energy radiating into and out of the building with its effects.  It is this energy ratio between the interior surfaces and the surface of the body that ultimately determines the comfort factor.
For maximum energy savings you want the lowest rate of absorption and re-radiation of energy.  Lower is better.  The determining factors of any insulation?s performance are:
1   The rate of absorption and re-emittance ( radiating ) of energy.  From the ?bible? we see that wood (cellulose), and glass (fiberglass) is about 90%+ efficient in absorbing and re radiating energy.  Base foam materials are about 20% efficient.   Aluminum foil about .03%.
2   Other than the basic material and its construction features, moisture, either from humidity or condensations can cause substantial energy flow.  Using the ratio or 5% increase per 1% of moisture by weight, data published by the National Bureau of Standards shows that fiberglass and cellulose can increase energy flow about 45 / 72% due to moisture in an uninhabited structure. Even the relative humidity can account for a dramatic increase in energy flow.  Increased humidity levels in an inhabited structure can cause even more energy lose / gain. Since radiant barriers do not cause condensation and are superior vapor barriers, the interior humidity levels can be lower than with other insulations.
3   The low quality of installation can also be a detriment to the effectiveness of insulation.
The following chart shows Btu transfer for various ceiling temperatures.  Calculations for infiltration, doors and windows are separate as they will be the same for any insulation installed.  To increase the envelope efficiency even more, Insulation Specialists has developed a simple method of installing RB to reduce to about 1% the conductivity surfaces of studs and ceiling joists from the normal 12-15 %  surface area.  In summer you can measure the drywall temperature which can reach up to 110 degs on a 95 deg day with the lower efficiency insulations and no roof shading.   If the floor temperature is 75 degs the ceiling, using temperature figures, will radiate about 99 degs/sf/hr.  The 110 deg ceiling temperature is about 25 degrees hotter than a winter radiant heat system, causing the air conditioner to run continuously to try to compensate.  Without the air conditioner the interior temperature could exceed 100 degs.  If the RB is 110 degs it will radiate about 2-3 degs /sf/hr.  In a properly designed ranch home the interior temperature, with RB, will be about 80-81 degs without air-conditioning.  The humidity levels can also be lower as the RB does not cause condensation which can be forced into the home by the high temperatures in the structure as with some of the lower efficiency materials.   
Question; if the indoor temperature can be hotter inside than outside without the air-conditioned, how can the manufacturer claim their material is insulation?
As you use the chart keep in mind these two questions;
1   If bulk insulations are about 99% airspaces and radiant energy travels through space at about the speed of light, and the base material absorbs and re-radiates the energy at about an 80-90 percent efficiency, how can a manufacturer claim their material is an insulator?  More importantly how can an ?R? value be assigned to them ?
2   If the function of a RB is to reflect energy, how can an ?R? factor be assigned to it?  How can the government and the manufacturers of bulk insulations legitimately force the use of ?R? factors in evaluating radiant barriers?  More importantly, why?
3   Why has the US Senate interfered with, at least twice, the governments fair trade polices, including FTC regulations, when it comes to insulations?  Regulations which would have provided for a fair playing field.   Answer:  Over $100,000,000,000.00 tax revenue per year.
Because of this and other reasons the American home owners is using up to two to three times the amount of energy to heat a cool a home than what should be used.
In summer you can determine the temperature of your ceiling drywall by taping a thermometer to the drywall surface.
This chart is based on a 75 deg floor temperature. The chart can be validated by using the emissivity data and formula from Mark?s Mechanical Engineering Handbook.  FG values are for insulation between joists and include joist heat transfer.  The RB value is for the joists surfaces covered with the RB and a furring strip to separate the RB from the drywall.   ?A? is the dry wall temperature.   ?B? represents the Btu?s radiated for the FG installation.  ?C? represents the Btu?s radiated for the RB installation.     ?D? the Btu difference between the FG and RB.
Although the mechanics for side walls will be slightly difference this method can be used foe approximate comparisons.

         Summer                      Winter
   ?A?     ?B?   ?C?   ?D?       ?A?    ?B?    ?C?    ?D?                      150   88   5   83      75      0      0       0   
   140   75   4   71      70     5     .3       5
   130   61   3   58      60     14      1     13
   120   49   3   48      50       22      1      21
   110   37   2   35      40      31      2      29
   100   26   1   25      30      38       2      36
      90   15   1   14      20         45        3      42
      80     5       3     5      10        52        3      49
      75     0    0         0        0       58        3       55

The 110 deg is high lighted to represent a 95 deg day.  The 30 line is highlighted to show the similarities of the summer winter conditions.  Note the jump when the temperature gets down to zero degs.  Because of the rapid drop off in FG efficiency as the material thickness is increased it is difficult to extrapolate the RB and FG data for ?R? value comparison.  Compared to the advertised ?R? value for FG  the RB ?R? factor could exceed  ?R?100  value by a considerable amount, and it is impossible to have a  ?R? value of 100 much less 100 plus.

Myth:  Dust adversely affects the RB performance.  A:  Dust has little or no effect on a horizontally installed RB with airspace both sides.  The top surface could be painted black and the bottom surface might emit 1 or 2 extra Btus.  Most ceiling installations have one or more layers, so any increase in heat flow is doubtful.  There is little to no dust on vertical installations. Even with dust present the RB is superior to other materials.
Myth:  Holes adversely affect the RB performance.  A:  Some RBs are manufactured with vapor escape holes.  I know of no laboratory tests showing an increase in heat flow, particularly in multi layer installations.  Obviously you don?t want large holes, these should be repaired.
Myth:  RBs are not as efficient on up heat (winter) as summer.  A:  The engineering handbook does not make such a distinction.  The mechanics of up heat vs down conductive heat flow are slightly different; therefore any given material may exhibit slight differences for winter.  However these comments never note that the RB is still superior to other materials.
Myth:  Aluminum corrodes.  A:  Pure aluminum, such as the 99.9% pure foil used in RB, does not corrode under normal atmospheric conditions.   
A light oxidation does occur preventing any further oxidation. You would not want to breathe the fumes that could cause corrosion.  Corrosion can and does occur in some unfinished alloy aluminum because of the dissimilar metals used for alloying the metal.
Myth:  RB loses its insulation values over time.  A:  Since RBs do not corrode over time the answer is self evident.  I know of installations over 30 years old that work just like the day they were installed.
Myth:  You can?t use RB in very cold climates. When Perry and other scientists went to the poles they use aluminum foil to insulate the structures. The Navy SEALS used multi-layer foil (mfg?d to mil spec  HH I 1252) in 1964 in the Artic buildings where the mineral wool was failing.  >

Although I do not install RB any more I am still very motivated to provide info helping home owners to reduce energy costs.  The fact is, that I can show how to build a home, preferably ranch or better yet geodesic, that gets free winter heating and free summer cooling (almost).

Any questions?

[z.monkey]

Howdy rbisys2,

Hey, you don't have to convince me!  I AM SOLD!

I love this stuff!

Blessed Be Brother...

[z.monkey]

Howdy Y'all,

Here is an update on my energy efficiency improvements in the house.
Electric Bill for August 2007 was $485.73 with 3565 kilowatt hours used.
Electric Bill for August 2008 was $332.65 with 2675 kilowatt hours used.
That is a 31.5 percent improvement.  The bill went down by $153.08.
So I guess are that really hard, absolutely miserable work in the attic
paid off.  Again that is a double foil radiant barrier, one stapled to the
roof and the second on top of the insulation on the attic floor.  We added
10 inches of insulation to bring the total height up to 16 inches.

So, that big tinfoil hat on the house really did pay off...

Blessed Be...

[tallbaldguy]

Hello All,

First off, thank you fellow Texan z.monkey for the detailed posts regarding your ARMA Foil installation and its effects.  Also thanks to rbisys2 for your verbose and educated post.  I've studied this further and ran across a string that dives into the effect of RB and whether it "cooks" your roofing structure and the thermodynamics of attic environments located here:

http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=112101&page=5

This information combined with your results leaves me (and I would guess others as well) scratching my head as to the real "best way" to reduce electricity usage for heating and cooling.  A list of questions/statements/theories below may help clear things up if enough people add their intellect.

If a reflective RB such as ARMA Foil is laid out over the floor insulation in the attic, would this be sufficient to protect the living area of the house and still allow the natural thermodynamics between the heated air in the attic expanding and therefore escaping through the roof vents or through the under-eave vents?

What are the true effects of following products:
Attic door blanket?
Solar Attic Fans?  (I've heard that attic fans can cause negative pressure in the attic causing the attic to actually pull air from the living area.)
Ceiling Fans?  (Convection fears in living areas)
Ridge Vents?

I would think that thermostat type and placement in the home are critical elements to AC efficiency.  Are there some best practices and/or recommendations regarding thermostats?

Are there optimum settings for thermostats for different times of day, times of year, by region?

Is it possible for multi-zone AC systems (more than one thermostat and AC Unit in the same dwelling) to compete with each other?  How is perfect harmony between the multiple systems attained?

Would insulating garage attics and garage doors that are attached to the house that may or may not share attic space with the living areas have a dramatic effect on the efficiency of the house?  (I know it would have an effect, but is the benefit worth the cost of the solution?)

If I have a two story wall the length of my house facing South that gets the full effect of the sun would it help to grow something along that wall to shield it?  Suggestions?

That's all I have.  I'm a relatively new "poster", so I apologize in advance if my etiquette is askew.

Thanks to all..!!