Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind

[TechStuf]

This little "4 times more efficient " turbine/vortex gizzmo just might make enough power at speed to run "forever".
That would be enough "overunity" for me!!

I have contacted FloDesign's pres....though I think it highly likely that they are not interested in 'open source' activities, as inexorably chained to the profit motive as corporations are, historically speaking.  You see....as DWFTTW and Stuttgart's upwind achievements have aptly demonstrated, there are some serious gains to be made in these areas.  No profit motive required.

As for a test bed vehicle, if time permits, I may still go ahead with mine.  I feel that Stuttgart's heartening 64% upwind achievement may be eclipsed considerably.....as in 'total solar' fashion.

FloDesign is well positioned to deploy some crazy efficient innovations.....we'll see what we see.


TS

[TechStuf]

How would the self-vortexing rimmed turbines do in propellor mode DDWFTTW, for the same diameter as the Black Bird's prop?

A relatively slow turning prop such as that used by the 'black bird' team aptly demonstrates the gains to be had by even such a relatively inefficient setup as they have to work with.  As the prop develops thrust against the tailwind, it's slow moving inner radius, being unable to overcome the tail wind, acts as a slowly rotating vortex generator. Allowing the tail wind to push past, but causing it to be entrained in a spiral flow.  On the run up to speed, the swirling vortexes not only increase beneficial drag, but also trade energies with the air mass at the tips, creating, in effect, a large, curious type of vortex ring, such that eventually, it is able to break free of the tail wind behind it, instead now relying largely upon it's own continually generated low pressure area at the front of the vehicle.  One which, not only provides a continual negative pressure ahead, but one that helps drive the prop as well.

Once these dynamics are confirmed and studied, a prop may be  designed which will exploit these gains considerably.  Propeller technology is still in it's infancy.

Imagine props which are specifically designed to use the inner portion to generate vortices in order to increase efficiency, by lowering the engine torque required to turn them. 

Essentially pulling ourselves ahead by our own atmosphere's unending supply of bootstraps.

One of the cool things about a vortex ring is that, if structure correctly, it can be made to augment the forward thrust generated at it's outer periphery, with the negative pressure zone at it's core.  By shifting the negative pressure zone just ahead of center, one is achieving, among other things, a molecular gyrosopic thrust device.


TS

[ramset]

TS
HHMMmm.........
So I see you have a grasp on this [enough to help me understand it!!]

TS Quote:


A relatively slow turning prop such as that used by the 'black bird' team aptly demonstrates the gains to be had by even such a relatively inefficient setup as they have to work with.  As the prop develops thrust against the tailwind, it's slow moving inner radius, being unable to overcome the tail wind, acts as a slowly rotating vortex generator. Allowing the tail wind to push past, but causing it to be entrained in a spiral flow.  On the run up to speed, the swirling vortexes not only increase beneficial drag, but also trade energies with the air mass at the tips, creating, in effect, a large, curious type of vortex ring, such that eventually, it is able to break free of the tail wind behind it, instead now relying largely upon it's own continually generated low pressure area at the front of the vehicle.  One which, not only provides a continual negative pressure ahead, but one that helps drive the prop as well.

Once these dynamics are confirmed and studied, a prop may be  designed which will exploit these gains considerably.  Propeller technology is still in it's infancy.

Imagine props which are specifically designed to use the inner portion to generate vortices in order to increase efficiency, by lowering the engine torque required to turn them.

Essentially pulling ourselves ahead by our own atmosphere's unending supply of bootstraps.

One of the cool things about a vortex ring is that, if structure correctly, it can be made to augment the forward thrust generated at it's outer periphery, with the negative pressure zone at it's core.  By shifting the negative pressure zone just ahead of center, one is achieving, among other things, a molecular gyrosopic thrust device.


TS
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                          WOW!!
I'm more intrigued than ever!![hard not to be}.

Thanks
Chet

[Cloxxki]

@ramset:
As a boy I dreamt up such a car, 12 cylinder, but using them only as necessary. A supercar weighing a typical 1200kg (both for ultra supercars and boring family saloons) could run on 4 for highway cruising, up to 12 for track days. At 4 cylinders and 60mph, it should run more efficient than a saloon, thanks to optimized aerodynamics, the largest loss of all.
Since, I learned that cylinders themselves are flawed, especially when used with crank shafts. Now here is a design that seems such a no-brainer, but is responsible for over half our transport fossil fuel needs, over the optimal design which is much simpler. Tommey Reed is onto some great designs for explosion engines.

Anyway, on wind.
I posted an idea on the http://www.talkrational.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5 discussions, for a system, possibly using the flodesign turbine as a prop, where the air inlet would be low and in front of the vehicle, and the exhaust high up. This, to exploit the wind speed differential between lower and higher air layers. Not sure that makes any sense...
Anyway, to minimize wind drag on the mid section, which transports the air from the lower layer to the upper, wind should be funneled and accelerate into propably a vortex, so the transport tube takes up less frontal surface space. additionally, the (diagonally placed in side-view) tube could have some spoilers to reduce drag. These spoilers might as well house (part of) the supporting structure.

I'm now again breaking my head on whether any of the discussed ideas can contribute to a working to a DDWFTTW groundeffect airplane. Especially the lower/upper wind layers might come in handy here. I can imagine existing real tailwind right over the surface being decellerated as an air cushion is formed for the uniwinged craft overhead. The belly of the craft is a conveyer belt with vanes much like a steamboat wheel, scooping up the slow air, and the belt then running the higher placed prop.
Funny thing is that should the craft come too low, where the actual water speed is likely lower than the wind speed, the belt engaging it would actually increase thrust to the prop, increasing speed, and thereby lift. Hmmm...only if it got to fly at all, of course.
So, the belt might work for an engine-assisted start in catemaran mode, totally like the Black Bird cart. It will just need huge float and low ater resistance. With increasing speed, gradually allowing more air to come under the craft to lift it out of the water, and increasing belt vane depth, length and width.

My ideas tend to be near impossible to construct. But who WOULDN'T want a DDWFTTW aircraft?

[Pirate88179]

Quote from TS: "A relatively slow turning prop such as that used by the 'black bird'  team aptly demonstrates the gains to be had by even such a relatively  inefficient setup as they have to work with."

A large slow turning prop is more efficient than a smaller prop turning at high rpm. (I learned this in flight training)  This is why a helicopter can take-off vertically on the same weight/power as an airplane, which can't accelerate straight up.

Bill