Claimed OU circuit of Rosemary Ainslie

[PaulLowrance]

So you guys are still talking about trying to improve the accuracy of the scope pulse calculations? I did not study any of that data, but off the top of my head, one big issue people often have is if you, .99, used a DMM to measure the DC current across the battery shunt. The issue would be that a lot of DMM's have issues with measuring DC when there is an appreciable amount of AC. The large capacitors have a good amount of resistance, and therefore might not be a sufficient short for the AC. To see the correct DC on your setup, I would use the scope. You can tell the DC on the scope by switching from AC to DC mode, and the DC is equal to the amount that any part of the AC signal drops.

Paul

[poynt99]

.99,

So you're saying only the load produced 1.3 watts worth of heat, but the scope load calculations came to 2.0 watts, right? That's one thing that seems unclear in your previous data. Example, for the 375KHz experiments you wrote "CONTROL POS for equal TRAA of 67ºC = 13.5W". When you write "POS", are you referring to the power supply used in the control temperature measurements, not the POS in the Ainslie circuit, right? Wouldn't it be clearer to write "CONTROL PIL TRAA of 67ºC = 13.5W"?

Paul

In the 2.5kHz tests, the POSD (power output from supply DUT) was measured using 3 different methods: oscilloscope, VDC on filtered shunt, and VDC on 0.25 Ohm shunt. All 3 measurements were 2.0W.

The POSC (power output from supply CONTROL) was measured as 1.3W.

The POSD of 2.0W and POSC of 1.3W produced the same TRAA in the load resistor of 7 or 8ºC.

Therefore, we can conclude that a minimum of 0.7W of power is being dissipated in the MOSFET and 0.25 Ohm shunt.

Similarly for the 375kHz test:
POSD is 22.7W
POSC is 13.5W (for the same TRAA of 67ºC in the load resistor)

Therefore, we can conclude that a minimum of 9.2W is being dissipated in the MOSFET and shunt resistor.

.99

[PaulLowrance]

In the 2.5kHz tests, the POSD (power output from supply DUT) was measured using 3 different methods: oscilloscope, VDC on filtered shunt, and VDC on 0.25 Ohm shunt. All 3 measurements were 2.0W.

The POSC (power output from supply CONTROL) was measured as 1.3W.

The POSD of 2.0W and POSC of 1.3W produced the same TRAA in the load resistor of 7 or 8ºC.

Therefore, we can conclude that a minimum of 0.7W of power is being dissipated in the MOSFET and 0.25 Ohm shunt.

Similarly for the 375kHz test:
POSD is 22.7W
POSC is 13.5W (for the same TRAA of 67ºC in the load resistor)

Therefore, we can conclude that a minimum of 9.2W is being dissipated in the MOSFET and shunt resistor.

Okay, let me try to clarify that,

* Above you do not mention any scope power measurements for the load in the Ainslie circuit.

* The 2 watts is the total power produced by the power source (batteries?).

* You conclude (or assume) that the mosfet & shunt produces 2 watts - 1.3 watts = 0.7 watts.


BTW, if you and the others are not concerned about the scope power measurements from the pulses, then what's the concern about the shunts inductance?  If you're using the scope to calculate the DC current across the shunt, then the shunt inductance is not going to cause any measurement errors.

Paul

[MileHigh]

Hey Paul,

I am not really contributing to the thread anymore but let me give you a bit of background information.  .99 really knows his stuff.  I mean he really *really* knows his stuff.  His background knowledge and his measurement and analytical skills are truly great.

He already proved that the setup is not OU with his analog measurement system using his big filtering capacitor setup and the thermal profiling.  However, a lot of the participants in the thread refuse to acknowledge these results and want to see it proven without the filtering capacitor setup and using the DSO.  So there is a fun challenge to get bulletproof data using the DSO but it is tricky because when you look at a minuscule 100 nanosecond pulse and other timings the tiny parasitic capacitances and inductances come into play and become significant.

There was a Spice simulation that Poynt posted quite a few pages back that was really significant but I never commented on.  It shows the impedance of the load resistor.  In the simulation you see the impedance switch from positive to negative around the peak of the drain voltage pulse.  (Something like that, I am a bit foggy and am not going to dig it up.)  That is showing you the inductance switch over from being charged to discharging into the drain-source capacitance of the MOSFET.  So it is something that is tricky to measure, a few nanoseconds of skew in your measurements can affect the power calculations.

The bottom line is that there hasn't been the slightest whiff of over unity shown at all, which means the universe is unfolding as it should.  Others seem convinced that some overunity has been demonstrated.

Glen has another go round with a DSO, so we will see what happens.  On the EF, someone, I think it was Ash, posted that the group of "engineers" was poised to do bigger and greater things with this circuit, but the members of this elite group all only have basic to fair electronics and measurement skills.  The people that an outside observer might claim are the most knowledgeable in this field were not mentioned.  It's a classic example of people having opposite polarized views and operating in a group with their own frame of reference.  Some people might argue that that frame of reference is skewed and there is a "Moonie factor" at play.  Naturally, from within their frame of reference, it is the "unmentionables" that have the skewed frame of reference.

So some people think that the DC measurements for the power supplied to the circuit using the low pass filter capacitor setup are "skewed" because in their frame of reference it "has to be done with a straight battery connection" or they may begrudgingly concede that it can be done with a straight bench power supply connection.  Using a capacitor low pass filter to measure the DC current consumption "takes away" the over unity effect although they can't explain why that is, they just "feel" it and that's all there is to it.

It's like the Cold War - when I was a kid in Seventies I picked up an English shortwave radio broadcast from the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  You could feel the "skew" in every single world news item they read over the air.

MileHigh

[poynt99]

It has not yet been possible to calculate the POSTL(D) (power output from supply total to load DUT) because the PIM and PIS numbers are erroneous due to the skewed oscilloscope measurements, i.e. negative, and unusually high numbers.

.99