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Overunity Machines Forum



STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM

Started by PaulLowrance, December 04, 2009, 09:13:07 AM

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0 Members and 81 Guests are viewing this topic.

0c

Quote from: Airstriker on February 17, 2010, 04:30:09 AM
In such case the magnets should be positioned in a way, that they (magnets) alone will not fully saturate the core and also in a way, that only very little electric power is needed to make it go into full saturation mode. Once again precision needed.

Why wouldn't you want the magnets to completely saturate the core? Think about it a bit. When the magnets saturate the core, the core becomes a magnet and its external B field is oriented for maximum attraction to the magnets, thus providing maximum torque. Under this condition, the main purpose of the coil is to "rotate" the domain alignment so there is little or no "external" field to interfere with the magnet departure.

You wouldn't want the magnetic field to be more than what's needed to saturate because there would be unnecessary resistance for the coil to overcome, when rotating the B field. But magnetization all the way up to saturation should be fine and the closer to full saturation, the better (according to these funky images in my head).

Saturation gives you:

1) More torque
2) Increased inductive return from the flyback spike

Omnibus

If there is a resistance in parallel with the coil and Steorn are only considering the resistance R of the coil when subtracting I^2R from the input IV then they are underestimating their OU effect. In such a case the OU effect would be higher than the one they claim. 

Omnibus

The problem Steorn have is that they are too much ahead of everybody, especially with regard to measurement techniques and manufacturing of the device which prevents anyone from independently confirming their findings. So far there hasn't been a single attempt to replicate properly their claim. Just producing spinning pulse motors without the sophisticated measurements Steorn are presenting is no replication whatsoever. Because of lack of replicators up to the task the several on duty zealous activists, surrounded by a group of opportunistic sycophants, are having a ball which will not last long.

lumen

Quote from: exnihiloest on February 17, 2010, 11:34:05 AM
The Steorn claim is only based on the joule losses because Steorn substracts them from the total energy to calculate the useful energy.

Thus if Steorn over-estimates the Joule losses, his motor is not OU.

Steorn presumes that R*I² is the Joule losses, where R is only the coil resistance, and every one accepts it as evidence. But it would be true only if there was no resistance in parallel with the coil.
As the coil current works in aligning the electron spins against the magnet field, this work should be viewed by the generator as a supplementary resistance in which current is wasted (because from a voltage generator, all consumed energy is viewed as a current in a resistance).
I confess that I did not yet succeed in putting this equivalent resistance in the equations of the coil circuit but we must keep this hypothesis or explain in a different way how is done the work for spin alignement. Naturally I would prefer to be wrong and that a self-running motor proves it.

Your response was so calculateable, I could have filled out your reply myself.

The problem is not in your calculations, It's your viewpoint of the calculations.

Use your ability to find how it could work, not why it can't!
Everyone already knows why it can't work!



0c

Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
About the origin, in the somewhat steep and linear regions of the curve (L1 and L2 in the image below), there are large numbers of unaligned magnetic domains at any point, and an increase in H (current) will cause a correspondingly linear increase in the number of aligned magnetic domains.

Agreed. The effort required to flip and align the domains is the most difficult part and is responsible for most of the inductive current rise delay when the pulse is initially applied. Rotation once the domains have been aligned with each other is relatively inexpensive.

Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
This is the reason for the fast rise time in current for the Orbo.

I disagree. This is the primary reason for the initial delay before the sharp rise in current for the Orbo. Some of the factors I have been mentioning do not seem to be incorporated in Orbo, remanence is one. That inductive delay at the beginning of the pulse indicates to me that Orbo's cores have very little remanence and require more effort to realign the domains with each other at the beginning of each cycle.

It is possible that Steorn has deliberately sacrificed some of the efficiency remanence might contribute in order to leverage some other material property (like magnetic viscosity). It's also possible they have simply overlooked it.

Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
... "B" is proportional to the voltage related by a constant on the linear portions?

Huh???

Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
Between these two regions is a transition region. In this portion of the curve, which can be relatively large dependent on the material, the number of unaligned magnetic regions is becoming smaller, and the B-H curve flattens.  As you can see, the steep linear regions do lead to saturation according to the material. This region, dependent on the core material, can be rather small or even quite large.

Not "wrong" but doesn't really sound quite right either. Let's call that "transition region" the "knee". Below the knee, the primary effect is domain alignment. Above the knee, the primary effect is rotation. The transition region itself is varying degrees of both.

Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
The Orbo is sitting at it's highest point of this steep linear curve.

I'm afraid I don't see it this way. I think Orbo is straddling the permeability curve, leaning a bit towards the saturated side. Remember their first measurement of inductance? The change was only from about 960 to 990 mH. That's not a massive change like they got in their supplementary demo with the A and large magnet in direct contact. I think greater gains in torque and inductive return can be had if better use can be made of the saturated side of that permeability curve.

See Figure 3.11: http://books.google.com/books?id=cYaQAOCuygcC&pg=PA55

(I wish I could find a "permeability vs. saturation" graph like this for Metglas or Finemet.)


Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
[Edit:]  The "flat" portions representing the fully saturated regions is nonlinear in respect to B, which means it is related by an integral and not related by a constant.  This means going from Mr to Ms, "B" will be related by an integral and not by a constant, which I think means the current won't have a fast rise time and the voltage/current won't remain steady under load.

I'm afraid the math is out of my reach. I'll leave that to those more capable than me. I just have "visions".

Hope this makes sense.