STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM

[Omnibus]

More importantly, regarding the OU effect, why should we care at all what is detected on the other side of the transformer if we indeed are measuring correctly the actual I and V on both sides and the calculations yield OU?

[lumen]

I have not looked at all the excel data but I assume you are using CH2 as the input source used in the current calculation along with the signal on CH1 and CH3 to determine the current through the setup.

I am thinking that as some frequency, it may be possible to have an internal capacitance conduct a greater current from the source into the secondary winding, where much of this is shorted in the secondaries path to ground on the end opposite of R out. This would result in greater current draw at the source that would not show up at either Rin or Rout, but instead route to ground out the opposite end of Tr from Rout.

Anyway, it seems possible that several conditions may exist within the operation of this setup and the best choice to detect any error was placing the resistor at the source generator or the opposite transformer leg from rout, since this could be an alternate path to ground that is not monitored.
Or possibly both locations. I think at the source is the best choice and should show any faults.

[Omnibus]

Correct. CH2 measures the input voltage, CH1 measures the input current while CH3 measures both output voltage and output current (if that voltage is divided by the resistance of Rout).

I'd like to understand better, however, your argument which allows for the existence of current unaccounted for either by Rin or Rout (the voltage measurements across them, that is). I don't see how in a closed circuit there can be an alternate path that isn't monitored. Unless I consider it a closed circuit in one way but the capacitance closes the circuit differently. But still, no matter how the circuit is closed current flowing inside of it cannot have two different values or I'm missing something. That's important to be understood if you're right.

[Omnibus]

Somehow, if I understand you correctly, the unsuspected capacitance makes it so that what is measured as input is only part of the actual input to the device because the capacitance shorts the pulse generator out somehow along an alternate circuit. But how does this exactly happen?

[Omega_0]

@Omega_0,

The more I think about the calorimetry the more convinced I get it's not appropriate a technique in this case. Even if the heat is measured accurately the problem with the input power is practically unresolvable. The complicated form of the signals requires a very detailed quantization and that can be achieved for only very short periods of time, way too short compared to the periods needed for accurate calorimetry. The method I'm applying, only comparing experimentally obtained electrical quantities, is the most rigorous indeed, provided these quantities are correctly measured. Now what needs to be done is to find qualified independent parties to reproduce what I've already found. @Groundloop said he's planing replication as well as you, as far as I recall. This third party replication has been the weak point in all OU claims so far and this study should be an example as to how such claims are to be handled. I'll try to speak with colleagues these days and see if they would be interested in reproducing the results. Also, I'd appreciate it if you or the other participants in this discussion would come up with names and/or places I could contact to explore if they'd want to try reproducing these findings. The beauty here is that we're dealing with easily available apparatus (easily available where such work is routinely done, of course) and with a device which cannot be more accessible.

I'm using a common sense approach here, as I have no experience in measuring such systems and using this particular method. (And I guess no one else has attempted such thing except steorn). So I can't say which approach will guarantee most accurate results, but IMO more than one approach is the safe way.

As the output of the system is totally heat (primary heat+secondary heat+iron losses) it is prudent to use a means to measure heat directly, i.e. a calorimeter on the output side. As the input is electrical energy only (ignoring the heat generated in internal resistance of power source), its prudent to use a scope with data capture, as you are already doing, and integrate the readings.

I agree that more replications are needed. I'm stuck with a USB scope whose s/w is still under development (no data capture available at this time, expected in a month or so), I can only test this in near future. I guess you should send a request to JLN and others who are good at measuring and have some experience in OU matters (and are well equipped and fast). More heads are needed.