STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM

[Omega_0]

If the key factor of operation is core saturation, then just selecting a material with a very high permeability would also require a strong field to saturate the core.
Would it be better to use a material that saturates just above what the magnets would be applying so that there would not be any loss in attraction but the coil could easily saturate the core?

lumen, can you explain this more please. Why its better to have less permeability from output point of view ?

I was thinking that the force of attraction is proportional to the pole strengths and area of both pieces. So simply using a stronger and bigger magnet should increase the force. Or am I wrong here ?

Not very close, but should give an idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Force_between_two_bar_magnets

[mondrasek]

@Omnibus, I agree completely.  I would just like to help those who are struggling to select materials and construction techniques for their set ups to have a concise list of the tradeoffs of each variable so they can choose wisely.  It takes so long to wind the toroid coils.  Choosing the wrong size wire, core material, number of turns, etc. can cause one to be quite far outside of the basic parameters already being learned.  And the recovery time after learning that mistake is long.  Especially if people are ordering the toroid core materials, wire, etc.  It would be best if they had all the information to choose a construction set that is the closest to optimum available with the knowledge gained to date.

Ultimately I believe most builders want to create a self runner.  That might not be what is needed to prove OU, but without it, many will not be satisfied.  Plus, nothing else has the same "wow" factor imho.  So I offer the idea that maximizing rotor torque must be a primary focus, and possibly secondary to minimizing the electrical input.

So much great information has surfaced on how to optimize the electrical control side.  Any more information on how to optimize the "free" energy torque output should be collected too.

Again, optimizing the electrical controll circuit for the wrong goal (such as RPM) can be wasted efforts.  The optimum electrical control circuit must create the maximum rotor torque in order to reach the ultimate goal.  Ignoring rotor torque for the sake of minimizing electrical input alone can be counterproductive.  I just want the electrical motor builders here to keep that in mind.

[lumen]

lumen, can you explain this more please. Why its better to have less permeability from output point of view ?

I was thinking that the force of attraction is proportional to the pole strengths and area of both pieces. So simply using a stronger and bigger magnet should increase the force. Or am I wrong here ?

Not very close, but should give an idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Force_between_two_bar_magnets

No, you are correct, I was saying that some materials that are rated low permeability, actually have very high initial permability but for a short range on the BH curve.
This may work out better in this case as long as the magnets used do not exceed the materials saturation point and lose some potential attraction.
The advantage is, it will require a smaller electrical input to the coil to saturate the core.

[neptune]

Just a few practical hints for winding toroids. Assuming you know how many turns you need . First take a short piece of wire , and wind 10 turns. Unwind it , and measure its length. You now can calculate total wire length needed . Add say 10% to be safe , more if the winding is to be multi layered. Find the middle of the wire . Wind the coil in 2 halves , start at say 6 o'clock and wind through 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Start again at 6 , wind through 3 to twelve o'clock . You may find that if the wire is long , a shuttle is useful . Take piece of 10 mm dowel about60 cms long , and cut a slot about 2 cms deep into each end [ like the slot in an arrow. Bind the dowel with thread to stop the slots splitting . wind wire end over end onto the shuttle , and keep threading it thru the toroid like a needle . Unwind wire from shuttle as and when necessary . Hope this helps someone.

[captainpecan]

Again, optimizing the electrical controll circuit for the wrong goal (such as RPM) can be wasted efforts.  The optimum electrical control circuit must create the maximum rotor torque in order to reach the ultimate goal.  Ignoring rotor torque for the sake of minimizing electrical input alone can be counterproductive.  I just want the electrical motor builders here to keep that in mind.

I agree totally, it should be kept in mind.  There are a lot of us however that aren't that far yet with our builds.  Me for instance, I just want a rotor that turns without my coils MELTING... lol..  I'm moving forward nicely though.

As for using steel for the core.  Sure the numbers sound good, and my simple tests show it works pretty well, but there may still be some problems not seen yet.  For instance, the whole point of this motor design is to eliminate Lenz Law.  Is the permeability going to be high enough to do this?  We will see.  As far as saturation, yes steel should saturate much easier than ferrite, but to be honest, I'm not so sure we need complete saturation to begin with.  Following everyones results, it seems that all that is required is to disrupt the domains in the core, to break the magnetic attraction.  So we should keep in mind that complete saturation may not truly be the goal here anyway.  I do not think Ossies setup is fully saturating those cores. I could be wrong of course, but I believe he is hitting it with just enough to jumble those domains.  BUT, saturation may be needed if the magnets are strong enough.  Then it would make it possible to keep increasing the free energy attraction, while still using the same input to break the attraction.  It seems the number of turns is by far the most important aspect to cut current so far.  Torque is another story, we will see what happens.