Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power

[hartiberlin]

Hi Luc, are you sure you explained the scope channels right ?
Isn´t in the first scopeshot the green trace not the coil voltage or is it really the coil current ?

IMHO only green can be the coil voltage, otherwise I am pretty puzzled...
Hmmm...

Also how long do you energize the coil ?
Is it about these 16 milliseconds so about 4 x DIVs ?

Also it would be nice if we would have the same RPM in both scopeshots
to compare the waveforms... So I don´t know, where the zero point crossing voltage induction is
located regarding the coil location inside the motor ?

At which location  doesn´t  the coil generate any voltage when it is moved ?
Is it at the center location of the motor ?

Well the only time I know that there is no counter induction when a magnet passes
a coil or a coil passes a magnet is in the ORBO device,
where 2 ferrite toroid coils are 180 degrees out of phase, so the induction is canceled out,
but the toroids attract a magnet and when energized the magnet can pass
all happening WITHOUT any induction inside the toroid coils... So there LENZ law is fully
violated.

But here in your case I am not sure, it seems that Lenz is there, if the green trace in the first
scopeshot is the voltage across the coil.


Maybe you can try to use a charged capacitor to pulse the coil and see, how far it lifts
up the coil.
If you put additional weight on it or addtional magnets and if you can raise the coil higher than
the stored energy in the capacitor then you have already shown overunity.

The stored energy in the cap is 0.5 x C x Voltage^2
and the raised weight energy  = mass in Kg x g( earth acceleratiion 9.81)  x height-difference in meters

So if you can show with a single shot from a charged capacitor, that you can raise the
coil weight higher than the stored cap energy you would have already shown overunity.

So lets make a calculation example:

If you use 1 Farad as the Cap and have it charged up to 10 Volts you have an energy stored
as 0.5 x 1 x 100= 50 Wattseconds.

Now, if you put additional weight onto the coil so it is about 10 Kg
you should be able to lift the 10 Kg weight:

height difference=50 / ( 10 kg x 9.81 ) = 0.509 Meters

So if you could lift it vertically against gravity higher than 0.509 Meters you have Overunity.

This would be probably work best with bigger coils with just very fine wire and many turns and
much higher cap voltages.

Okay, so please let us know the fire timing of your circuit and the colors of your scopeshot
of what is what and I can have another pondering...

Many thanks.

Best regards, Stefan

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc, are you sure you explained the scope channels right ?
Isn´t in the first scopeshot the green trace not the coil voltage or is it really the coil current ?

IMHO only green can be the coil voltage, otherwise I am pretty puzzled...
Hmmm...

Also how long do you energize the coil ?
Is it about these 16 milliseconds so about 4 x DIVs ?

Also it would be nice if we would have the same RPM in both scopeshots
to compare the waveforms... So I don´t know, where the zero point crossing voltage induction is
located regarding the coil location inside the motor ?

At which location  doesn´t  the coil generate any voltage when it is moved ?
Is it at the center location of the motor ?

Well the only time I know that there is no counter induction when a magnet passes
a coil or a coil passes a magnet is in the ORBO device,
where 2 ferrite toroid coils are 180 degrees out of phase, so the induction is canceled out,
but the toroids attract a magnet and when energized the magnet can pass
all happening WITHOUT any induction inside the toroid coils... So there LENZ law is fully
violated.

But here in your case I am not sure, it seems that Lenz is there, if the green trace in the first
scopeshot is the voltage across the coil.


Maybe you can try to use a charged capacitor to pulse the coil and see, how far it lifts
up the coil.
If you put additional weight on it or addtional magnets and if you can raise the coil higher than
the stored energy in the capacitor then you have already shown overunity.

The stored energy in the cap is 0.5 x C x Voltage^2
and the raised weight energy  = mass in Kg x g( earth acceleratiion 9.81)  x height-difference in meters

So if you can show with a single shot from a charged capacitor, that you can raise the
coil weight higher than the stored cap energy you would have already shown overunity.

So lets make a calculation example:

If you use 1 Farad as the Cap and have it charged up to 10 Volts you have an energy stored
as 0.5 x 1 x 100= 50 Wattseconds.

Now, if you put additional weight onto the coil so it is about 10 Kg
you should be able to lift the 10 Kg weight:

height difference=50 / ( 10 kg x 9.81 ) = 0.509 Meters

So if you could lift it vertically against gravity higher than 0.509 Meters you have Overunity.

This would be probably work best with bigger coils with just very fine wire and many turns and
much higher cap voltages.

Okay, so please let us know the fire timing of your circuit and the colors of your scopeshot
of what is what and I can have another pondering...

Many thanks.

Best regards, Stefan

Hi Stefan,

thanks for your post.

The Green trace is the current in both scope shots.

The Coil is energized 99.5% of the time. It starts at one end of the core and when it reaches the other end it has an instant polarity shift. The polarity shift (AC) is so fast that I believe the flyback is incorporated at the beginning of the next opposing on time.

I'll try to get a scope shot with same RPM.

I'm not positive at which location the coil doesn't generate any voltage when moved but I would think the zero crossing happens when the coil reaches one end of the core and the crankshaft sends it back the other direction.

I will do a capacitive discharge as you suggest but I know if I add more weight and add more PM it will lift the extra weight. Are you sure this proves OU?... seems to easy to do

Luc

[broli]

The potential energy experiment is actually a good test, good catch Stefan. I don't think you need to use that much energy though his setup is also very small.

[hartiberlin]

Hi Luc,
okay, now I had another closer look.

As I don´t know, how your H-bridge circuit looks alike and how the resistances of the transistor
or MOSFETs change over time there, the yellow trace= coil voltage is a bit strange, but okay....

In the green trace you can see exactly that there is the LENZ law occuring, as in the motor operation you
see a quick accelerating current pulse and then the counter induction from the coil kicks in,
so the input current strongly gets reduced and as the coil gets slower again at the other turn
point the input current rises again as the counter EMF of the coil is reduced due to lower speed and
thus the input current rises again...
But the coil voltage should be different then also again, but maybe you H-Bridge is mostly powered
by cap discharges as the batteries might have a high internal resistance, so the coil voltage
behaves this strange...


Well, it surely also depends how long the coil is.
If you would have a short coil, that is only 0.5 cm long and the core would be 10 cm long
it would behave quite differently as it is now, where the core is maybe 10 cm long and the coil
is at least about 4 cm long ?

Also it could help to place in the center of the outer core some additional
iron core pieces so the return flux is concentrated in the center....then the counter EMF
would be also different and it could help to reduze Lenz law effect...

P.S. Yes, a device that can show more vertical lift height in ONE shot , that
does not comply to the energy conservation formular:

m x g x h = 0.5 x C x Voltage^2

will show overunity.

So if you can lift a weight vertically up into the air higher than the stored cap
voltage will tell you, you have a winner....!

Regards, Stefan.

[gotoluc]

Maybe you can try to use a charged capacitor to pulse the coil and see, how far it lifts
up the coil.
If you put additional weight on it or addtional magnets and if you can raise the coil higher than
the stored energy in the capacitor then you have already shown overunity.

The stored energy in the cap is 0.5 x C x Voltage^2
and the raised weight energy  = mass in Kg x g( earth acceleratiion 9.81)  x height-difference in meters

So if you can show with a single shot from a charged capacitor, that you can raise the
coil weight higher than the stored cap energy you would have already shown overunity.

So lets make a calculation example:

If you use 1 Farad as the Cap and have it charged up to 10 Volts you have an energy stored
as 0.5 x 1 x 100= 50 Wattseconds.

Now, if you put additional weight onto the coil so it is about 10 Kg
you should be able to lift the 10 Kg weight:

height difference=50 / ( 10 kg x 9.81 ) = 0.509 Meters

So if you could lift it vertically against gravity higher than 0.509 Meters you have Overunity.

This would be probably work best with bigger coils with just very fine wire and many turns and
much higher cap voltages.

Many thanks.

Best regards, Stefan

Hi Stefan

As per your request I have made a video demo to prove Overunity. Does this mean I can apply for the OU prize

Link to video: http://youtu.be/OxuotFUWVGQ

Let me know what you think

Luc