Self running coil?

[mscoffman]

Gotoluc’s Real Self Runner... Gentlemen: “Let us Compute!”


The data used for the following calculations is taken from:
Self Running Coil Test #7 video â€" (Search for gotoluc on youtube.com)
Since we can’t experiment physically, we will do some theoretical
calculations.

The first calculation finds the equivalent resistance that would discharge
the gain from the bulk capacitors at (about) the same rate the of voltage
gain from the circuit is charging the bulk capacitors. Per second. Taken
from the video.

The voltage on the bulk capacitors: = 16.64volts
Total size of the bulk capacitors =  2 x 3900uf =  7800uf
Approximated change rate in voltage on the bulk capacitors when circuit
is tuned taken from video #7 = 1/100 or   .01volts per each (1) second.

Calcs #1: 1/1664 in one second = time period giving =  0.000601Hz.
filter “corner frequency"

Calcs #2: RC (filter spreadsheet) calculator web link;
http://www.muzique.com/schem/filter.htm

C= 7800uf  cap.,  plus .000601Hz freq.  gives an RC time constant
R = 34Kohms

This means that when the circuit is charging at a maximum rate that would
be balanced by 34Kohms of additional resistance connected across the
capacitors. This means that our transistor could only have a gate drive
coming through 34Kohm total. I can tell by estimating this amount is
*problems* relative to the gate drive power of the mosfet transistor
IRF640 we are using. Even worse for the Buz11 mosFet.

Now lets find current through 34K ohms at 16.64Volts
E=IR :  ma = 16.64V/34. = 0.5ma total available current.

Math Calculator web link;
http://www.math.com/students/calculators/source/scientific.htm

0.5 ma gain current is (x10) too small to supply the SG3525 mosfet osc.
drive circuit estimate of 5.0ma.

---

The second calculation finds the equivalent resistance of two resistors
connected in series.

Rs = R1 + R2. where R1 is the (variable) resistor that converts the total
bulk voltage down to the gate drive voltage where R2 is the resistor
equivalent of the parasitic capacitance of the mosfet being driven at the
frequency of the input signal.

Capacitance gate to output taken from IRF640 spec sheet
      Cisd (capacitance of  input , to source-drain)  = 1560pf = 1.56nf
Frequency of input signal F = 33.3KHz =~ 32KHz.
Bulk Voltage drive to optoisolator VB  =  16.64Vdc pp.
Gate drive Voltage to mosfet  VG = 10.94Vac pp.

Calc #1: Capacitive impedance calculator web link;
Btw the equation is: [Zohms = 1/(2pi * F * C)]
http://www.cvs1.uklinux.net/cgi-bin/calculators/cap_imp.cgi

C= 1.56nf , at F= 32.0KHz gives an equivalent resistance of about
IRF640 gate @ 32Khz Z equiv: R = 3.2Kohms

Find  R1 and R1+R2   where  R2/(R2 + R1)  :=:  VG/VB

Calc #2: R2+R1 = 3.2K/( 10.94V/16.64V) =  4.8Kohms (total drive circuit
impedance)
Calc #3: R1 = 4.8K â€" 3.2K = 1.6K so the variable resistor should be 5Kohms
total, set at about 1/3 up, for 1.6Kohms

Math Calculator web link;
http://www.math.com/students/calculators/source/scientific.htm

---

This suggests that a better transistor type (a non-power) mosfet
might give better results. If we can get a transistor with Cisd down
below 156pf and  the Rsd = .15ohms is not critical, then we will be
balancing transistor drive with circuit overunity gain. I think this is
doable. As long as the optoisolator is isolating the AC led drive
through a very small cap 2pf who necessarily cares where the
drive signal originates...For now. Thanks.

:S:MarkSCoffman

[HarryV]

Such could be indeed the case, however...

If the magnet would move/vibrate instead of the domains then [I think that]:

1) The [to receive] charge would go along the Y-ax [which means pick-up coil would be positioned wrong].
2) The core windings would [probably?] *not* have the effect [the cap charge back I mean here] that we notice now, because the magnet should have been positioned along the Z-ax in such a case, which would be very weird.

Which leads to a quick confirmation test:

When we place a small pick-up coil at the 'S' pole position, we would pick-up [considerable more] charge than what is being pick-up now(*), because *if* the magnet would move/vibrate, most of the charge would be able to receive at the magnet S and N pole.

(*) It is possible that when a small coil placed there, it *does* pick-up [a rather small] amount of charge, since the magnets field would [probably?] be affected by it's interaction with the core's domains [like see such as a Cemf, seen from magnet perspective!].  Also, actually Picking-up charge here *would* decrease what is being returned to the coil [and as such cap], because in *this* case the coils wire is being affected.

P.S.: Maybe someone could do a clean up of my quick copy and paste drawing?(**)

P.S.2: I wanted to make a similar drawing, but then seen from the coil [core] perspective, but since the wiring is not standard, I have trouble in seeing how such would be graphically represented... Maybe some of you here could draw up such ?

P.S.3:  It might become clear that if the magnet is placed TO near the coil, it's magnetic fieldwould pass the X-as border [the halve of the coil], which *could* reduce the effect [pick-up] we notice now. Also, placing an extra magnet [as shown in the drawing] might increase the effect we notice ?

P.S.4: The above description is not totally correct, as [small] parts of it *seem* to contradict Luc's scope results, but [at this point of time] to me, this seems a pretty close estimation of the effect we notice, and I have *indications* of why parts *seem* to contradict.

P.S.5: I do of course not argue about the fact that the magnet *its field* is vibrating.

(**) To ADD in the clean-up drawing:

Notice that we talk about a different than normal effect here... Normally (and it still does) the magnet interact with the coils wire, and in such influences with what is returned back into the coil [and in such cap]... However, the 2nd and greatly overlooked side effect [and *this* influences the pick-up coil(s)], is that charge seems to be radiated outwards of the coil [by means of magnetic field], which is at a 90 degree angle with the coils input energy... *This* also could be why the input and output energy do not inteference with each other, since they are not on the same phase.

Now, *if* the AE[Additional Energy] returned in the pick-up coil(s) would be *more* then what is being lost over the coil [and circuit] resistance, we could argue that this AE in, would in fact be enough to be able to redirect this AE energy back into the circuit, and we would have our first ever *confirmed* self runner.... However there are still a lot factors which might prohibit such.

--
NextGen67

The reason why I suggested the magnet itself is vibrating comes from how
the rotor magnets relate to the core in the torriodal coil in Steorns Orbo. There seems to be a consensus among most people (on both sides of the OU debate) that when the toroidal coil is energized the core essentially becomes magnetically less attractive or 'invisible' to the rotor magnets, allowing the rotor magnets to sweep past without being attracted back to the core with the same action as when approaching the core.

Similarly I would expect the magnets on gotoluc torriod coil are subject to an oscillating** force of attraction as the core's magnetic attractiveness varies with the pulsing current.

addendum: **fluctuating is a better term.

[forest]

Hey,why not connecting 555 to the capacitor bank ? Just use something to protect from overvoltage and voltage stabilizer.Probably bad idea but anyway...

[NextGen67]

The reason why I suggested the magnet itself is vibrating comes from how
the rotor magnets relate to the core in the torriodal coil in Steorns Orbo. There seems to be a consensus among most people (on both sides of the OU debate) that when the toroidal coil is energized the core essentially becomes magnetically less attractive or 'invisible' to the rotor magnets, allowing the rotor magnets to sweep past without being attracted back to the core with the same action as when approaching the core.

Similarly I would expect the magnets on gotoluc torriod coil are subject to an oscillating** force of attraction as the core's magnetic attractiveness varies with the pulsing current.

addendum: **fluctuating is a better term.

HarryV,

You are right in a way.

If the core have a reaction, then the magnet has its counter reaction, I was not clear enough in my idea... What I tried to point out is that the effect we seem to have [the pick-up coils having no influence on the input energy] is caused by the core its domains [and not the magnet vibrating itself].

If you 'tight up' the magnet and the coil together, so that the motion of the magnet is very restricted, this would have a better outcome for the mentioned effect. I do not want to go to deep into this, because it might open a lot of side way argumentation, which would be not a good idea for the progress of Luc's work;)

However, I hope to make it clear what I mentioned before.

Note that this is based on Luc his pick-up coil position, in which he says that the position he found is the best place for optimal receiving of energy.

--
NextGen67

[skywatcher]

I have some bad and some good news.   

The bad news:
After some hours, my circuit stopped working. Voltage on cap was less than 1 V.

Now the good news:
It has been triggered by the generator the whole time, so if there was any power leaking through the gate, it was not enough to keep the circuit running for a infinite time.

The voltage on the cap never increased, so i assume my circuit is not tuned correctly. So i have to try to tune it as Luc showed it to get the cap voltage rising. The only tuning i did so far was the tuning of the generator frequency.

Slightly off-topic:

Today my new scope arrived:  http://www.owon.com.cn/eng/hds-n.asp
It's the HDS3102M-N. Looks very nice. 500 MS/s and 100 MHz bandwidth. 

It has the big advantage that it's not connected to the mains neutral line so you are absolutely free where to place your measurement ground. With a normal scope, you are always in danger of producing short circuits if the circuit you are measuring is also connected to the mains neutral line, e.g. through the power supply.