Hi everyone,
I thought I would post this in a separate topic to generate some discussion on a relatively isolated topic.
I have previously talked about Mechanical PWM using Slip Rings. The examples I have given use 180 degrees as a PWM of 50% duty cycle.
How about using 30 degrees as a 50% duty cycle ?
In the image below I have divided a slip ring into 12 equal segments of 30 degrees each. The point being that 30 degrees ON and 30 degrees OFF would equal 50% duty cycle.
With a practical Turbine max speed of say 6,000RPM that would give us 100 Hz at 60 RPM = 1 Hz.
By segmenting into 30 degrees we could use the rotation as a multiplier with 6 separate 50% duty cycle pulses in each 360 degree rotation.
This would increase the Frequency to 600 Hz.
Do you agree with this possibility ?
I am curious as to if any electronic specialists have a view on how long the pulse would need to be in order to be effective ? Could we go as low as 5 degrees (2.5 deg ON/ 2.5 deg OFF) for each 50% duty cycle ? Giving us a Frequency of 72 x 100 Hz = 7200 Hz.
If for example we were to use a pulley ratio of 1:3 from the HELP to the PWM Slip Ring Assembly for the Resistor that would give us 6000 x 3 = 18000 RPM.
18,000 RPM = 300 Hz
300 x 72 = 21600 Hz
I am also curious if anyone has an idea how best to construct a PWM Slip Ring ?
Any thoughts welcome :)
It's an interesting idea. Leaving aside for the moment the issue of Why one would want to do such a thing...
I recently made an optical version of a mechanical PWM-style commutator for a Steorn motor that I was playing with. Basically I made a concentric pair of rings with slots, one inside the other, that could rotate to open or close the slots, letting in more or less light, to control the length of the optical pulse.
The same thing could be done with a slipring or slipdisk, with a moveable insulating sector that could cover up more or less of the conductive surface. I think it would be simple to do on a disk, slightly more difficult for rings or cylinders.
But:
Electronic commutation and PWM is much more efficient and versatile. Is there something about mechanical commutation that is important to your design? Some people believe there is some special benefit from the sparking and noise that a mechanical slipring or commutator introduces. While I agree that there's nothing like a good spark, I don't believe there's anything magical about them.
I quickly discarded the optical PWM for the Steorn motor--it just wasn't accurate enough using the cheap CdS photoresistor sensor-- so I changed to an Allegro Microsystems Hall effect switch, a dollar and a half chip that worked quite well.
This is why I am interested in Mechanical PWM:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10002.0
contained within this post are all the links that fully disclose my technology architecture. Its a bit of a long read and not in order but it is all there if you work through it.
With what you have already said about your knowledge of similar processes I got a feeling the HHO crowd might be after some PWM slip ring construction advice :)
Once you have familiarised yourself with my technology maybe you will have some ideas on how to help ?
Thankyou for your reply was most interesting :)
Ah. I see.
First, posting an image that is almost two screens wide causes the whole thread to be formatted W I D E and each and every comment must be then scrolled left and right by the reader. It is very annoying -- I have even seen posters say "well, I have a 23 inch wide screen so it doesn't bother me"...but it bothers me; I am using a laptop with a 15 inch wide screen, and I'll bet the 23 inch screens are in the minority around here.
Second, have you ever done any experimentation YOURSELF with electrolysis, power generation, and so forth? You have a lot of detailed ideas but -- I am guessing here -- it seems to me that you may not actually have hooked up a known power source to some electrodes, collected the gases, and tested them in some way for energy content.
I suggest you try some experiments. Make a small HHO generating apparatus, put in some power using bench supplies at whatever PWM cycle you like, collect the gas and make a little torch. Carefully record the input power to your system, and compare that to the flame you can produce from the gas you generate.
Next, imagine your Wankel engine turned passively from an outside power source, by its driveshaft. It's a pump, right? It moves gas from the intake to the exhaust at some rate governed by its RPM. Now, when you are actually running the engine, it must INTAKE the same total amount of something...presumably the HHO generated by your gas generator. So you have an idea of the VOLUME of total gas that's got to be provided to the engine while running, from whatever source. We are talking several tens of liters per minute of gas at STP here.
Where is all this gas to come from? Can you make an electrolysis system that can generate that kind of volume of gas, WITHOUT heating the water to boiling and putting in a lot of steam in the volume?
The simple bench experiment making a small torch with HHO gas (actually, of course, this is H2 and O2 gas in a stoichiometric mix) can be very instructive. But be careful; don't try to accumulate a large volume of the mixed gas, it's explosive.
Hi TinselKoala,
Apologies for the wide formatting of the image. It appears perfectly well on my 19" screen so from my perspective no need to change it. I understand that you cannot please everyone all of the time. I will be mindfull of image size in the future. Thankyou for letting me know.
It is clear from your reply that you have not read everything I have posted in my Technology Architecture.
Freedom Energy System Architecture is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9913.0
Pulsed Electro Magnetic Hydro Electro Lytic Pump is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9919.0
And HELTA is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10002.0
There are other links within those 3 posts on the OU news forum that have the information you require.
For your information I am an ex British Army Apache AH Mk1 Gunship engineer trained in airframes and engines. Gas Turbines my specialty. I have experimented within my meager resources with HHO over the years as is clearly stated within my work if you read it all.
I have done my best to provide everyone with off the shelf alternatives for components at an affordable price. As an example the Turbine Nozzle I have suggested took me six months of solid research to locate, and at 0.84 Euros EA in 316L SS is a bit of a bargain! Information given to you freely without condition.
The FESA system is where I have suggested people start in the quest for overunity. Within that post it is clearly stated how to increase the fuel output from the Series10 Dry Cell Bank. Assuming that the PMA will take a maximum 5HP to generate the 20V 120A needed to produce fuel that would leave 50 - 5 HP from the Wankel to do work. If the Wankel can be run from HHO on comparable performance to gasoline. If 2off Dry Cell Banks are required to generate the "tens of litres a minute" then it would be 50 - 10 HP leaving 40 HP to do work.
The HELPA shows how we can use that remaining output horsepower to create a slave system and generate exponential energy growth with a new energy rich fuel source at every slave level.
The HELTA is the advanced Architecture using the HELP and HELT devices and the Dry Cell as a Closed System Crossover Resistor in an Electro Lytic Fluid System.
I have clearly noted in the text in various places safety precautions to try and prevent someone with the ability to build a system but not the ability to understand its operating principles from blowing themselves up and suing me!
Of course HHO is highly explosive, unfortunately for the FESA design a primary fuel reservoir is required for priming of the system. This is unavoidable in that particular Architecture. With correct safety precautions, that I have detailed throughout my work, it should not be a problem.
Furthermore, I have sacrificed a decade of my life to this project, it has cost me more than I want to think about. I have now released all my work and simultaneously disseminated it across the world for peer review testing so that those with the resources and inclination to do so can prove it.
At the very least a new technology, the Hydro Electro Lytic Pump, has been invented for Tesla Turbine fans and the HHO crowd. Also a new way of using PMA's from Output Rotary Moment to continue fuel generation.
The purpose of this thread I intended to be to help anyone who decides to build my systems with advice on how best to construct a PWM Slip Ring, not get into a flame war about my assumed abilities and technology designs. I was simply trying to help. Maybe it was a bad idea.
I have modified this post so that I can say that I have released ALL of my work, with full system schematics and theory for ALL of my potential systems so that they are firmly and indisputably time stamped in the public domain. As such they cannot be patented in the forms I have presented. I have done this to protect the work and ensure that should they do what I believe they will do, they will be open source and a gift to humanity.
It is now simply a waiting game until someone builds them and tests them and scientifically proves them, or not. If I had the resources I would do it myself. If I could have found an investor to build them I would have, although it was strangely hard to find someone with the resources who was willing to commit to prototyping, when they found out I was going to give it all away anyway.
"Whats in it for me ?"
"Nothing! you gotta be kidding me... not interested!!"
I have been thinking about the possibilities for Mechanical PWM using slip rings and I came up with this:
The first image shows a slip ring with 4 conducting surfaces and 4 insulating surfaces. Each of the 8 segments would occupy 45 degrees. The shaft is in the center (White). Around the shaft is an insulating tube (Green) that the slip ring is mounted on. There are 4 slide fit holes to transmit and 4 oversized holes to isolate all with center bore on the same radius.
Two of these rings mounted 45 degrees out of phase to each other would allow DC+ and DC- output to the brushes with a pulse of 50% Duty Cycle every 90 degrees. Effectively multiplying our rotational frequency by 4.
The second image shows a Trapezoid that would be a perfect shape to have the plastic surface insulators laser cut. The Phosphor Bronze PB2 slip rings would have to be designed to accept them as an interference fit. (It was too difficult to draw a Trapezoid on the slip ring hence this note).
The third image shows a PWM Slip Ring Air Cooled Assembly. The entire assembly is mounted in compression for stability with the drive being transmitted via the hub and taper bush.
A Tesla Pump has been sandwiched between the end hub and the slip rings at each end. Air is sucked in through a passive intake in the centre and expelled at 90 degrees to the shaft by the pump. The PB2 is acting as both the conductor of electricity and heat.
Once assembled the assembly needs mounting in a lathe and turned to a true surface for the brushes to run on. As there are two different materials at the surface they will wear at different rates and the entire assembly may need to be trued up on the lathe from time to time. How long a period before this will need doing, if at all, I do not know.
A potential plastic for use as an insulating surface could be Celazole PBI:
http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/celazole-pbi-2260-0.html
It seems to have a good balance of properties for what we require. See what you think ?
The PWM slip rings can either be mounted straight to the secondary shaft of the HELP/HELT or they can be used in the air cooled assembly.
The air cooled assembly is for PWM of Solid State Dry Cell Resistors such as used in the FESA. With the 90 degree pulse rings mounted 45 degrees out of phase to each other the Dry Cell will be pulsed 180 degrees out of phase at a frequency of 4 Hz per 60 RPM.
So what do you all think ? A viable idea ?
Quote from: evolvingape on November 27, 2010, 05:49:15 PM
The second image shows a Trapezoid that would be a perfect shape...
I get what your postulating,
but perhaps there is an easier way.
Make a mold the cone shape Desired,
line it with pre-cut copper triangles,
steady a center shaft in the mold,
pour full of two part epoxy,
polish finshed item in a drill.
Would work for prototype's
to try variations to ideas.
Also,
have you considered the standard
centrifugal RPM governor design ?
It may lend an easier ways to approach
to the sensing and responding aspect of this.
Hi CompuTutor,
Thankyou for your input.
I did not mention in the thread but the point of the Trapezoid was that the base was wider than the top so that when epoxy glued and tapped in with a mallet and compressed in the stack it would be impossible for the insulator to "fly out" under centrifugal force when spinning. I am sure you understand that but this note is for those wondering what we are talking about.
No I have not considered the standard centrifugal RPM governor design, could you please elaborate on how we could build a device like that and what the advantages in sensing and responding would be ?
As people have probably noticed the designs for mechanical PWM i have posted are very similar to my designs for my turbines. After so many years of thinking about my turbines with out of phase discs I find it very difficult now to think about anything else as a solution to similar problems.
The PWM of the Dry Cell is an "add on" that was not considered until recently by me. I actually never thought of it until a few weeks ago when I finished releasing all my work.
I should also point out that if anyone does want to go the route of the design I have put up make sure you carefully think about where all the phase holes in every component are going to be. The airflow holes and the Hub support holes are not for example on the slip ring diagram. Build a prototype out of thick cardboard and use a pencil to push through and check the alignment of every hole is the easiest way.
A DC Motor with a potentiometer and laser tachometer (for speed readings) will tell you the RPM and you can calculate the Frequency from that. The Dry Cell power source from a Battery. This will help in the prototyping and finding the best design for the cell you are using.
Any thoughts and suggestions welcome :)