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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2006, 09:05:55 PM

Title: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2006, 09:05:55 PM
Have a look at these videos:

http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/BrownsGas/WaterFuel.wmv (http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/BrownsGas/WaterFuel.wmv)

http://www.hytechapps.com/presentation/#page=1 (http://www.hytechapps.com/presentation/#page=1)
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2006, 09:57:55 PM
Here is the patent:

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2006075683&F=0 (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2006075683&F=0)

and here is a picture of the electrolyzer,
seems they are also just using many plates in series,
maybe they use a special driver circuit ?

http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2005076767&F=0&QPN=WO2005076767 (http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2005076767&F=0&QPN=WO2005076767)
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: lancaIV on May 12, 2006, 10:13:08 PM
Browngas (alias Yul(Brynner)Brown alias ...),
Aquafuel,Hydrogas,Watergas et cet.:
To use this newly gas-kinds we will have to converse the ic-engine-
surface(similar treat like by nitrogen),they are a little more radical/abrasive !

S
  dL
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 04, 2006, 10:52:06 PM
It seems, the electrolysis is so efficient,
because he is powering just the 2 outer electrodes only,
but the other electrodes between are not connected to the power supply,
but also generate oxyhydrogen gas !
Have a look again here:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2005258049&F=0
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: TheOne on June 04, 2006, 11:20:06 PM
the joe cell is working like that we can say, the main SS tube is positif and middle one is negatif, all tube in between are not connected, maybe this cell work on the same principe.
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: TheOne on June 04, 2006, 11:26:48 PM
if you look at the patent http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2005076767&F=0&QPN=WO2005076767

but in page 64 (fig. 20)

you will see its probably like all the others cell out there, one side (half of the SS plate) are connected to - and the other half is connected to +

Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: hartiberlin on June 04, 2006, 11:39:34 PM
Yes,but it is said, that this is just an OPTION.
The normal generator from them seems not to have it.
There are the additional plates NOT connected, thus
lower input power required !
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: mikestocks2006 on June 04, 2006, 11:46:46 PM
On page 4 it states that it produces 55 scf at 35 psi using 4KWH.

Does anyone know if we plumb this gas flow into a high efficiency gas powered, electical generator, will it produce at least 4KWH using the 55 scf of the gas produced by the device?

If it does then that's it! Not an overunity device per se, but a device that produces excess power using only water.
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: TheOne on June 04, 2006, 11:52:52 PM
i will need to try this this summer, today i found some cool 4"x4" SS steel plate at RONA for 0.95$ (CAN) each. they have 2 holes, its like they have made this plate for hydrogen cell! :)

since my jeep v8 4.7 L use a lot of gaz, i will need to find out a way to decrease the gaz cost! at least i was able to increase the mileage (18-19 on higway) now its 22-23! but with an hydrogen cell that will increase more "hopefully"
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: joe on June 05, 2006, 08:53:38 AM
Hi The One,

You said that you have found some SS steel plate at RONA??
Can you tell me in which section of the store you have found it. Cause here in Gatineau's store I can't find any.   

Thanks   Joe
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: TheOne on June 05, 2006, 09:34:57 AM
ok, that was a RONA ENTREPOT. i dont know if you have that, RONA is not big like RONA ENTREPOT :), its near to the SS plate for wall, i think they use that to hide some kind of electric stuff in the wall. they have a lot of different plate/shape in the same section. They are in a box, you need to look in the box to see the plate
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: wizkycho on June 05, 2006, 10:34:11 AM
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 04, 2006, 10:52:06 PM
It seems, the electrolysis is so efficient,
because he is powering just the 2 outer electrodes only,
but the other electrodes between are not connected to the power supply,
but also generate oxyhydrogen gas !
Have a look again here:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2005258049&F=0

Yes it would be nice that in that way (only first and last plate is connected) resistance wouldnt
rise but it does. So You have to apply more voltage (hundred and more) to pass only few amperes through cell. +,-,+,-,+,-,..... type cell is much more efficient than +,0,0,0,...,- type cell if measured gass output per watt. Monoatomic (ionic) H+ + H+ hydrogen  + O2 can only be made in +,0...,- type cell and not in low voltage +,-... type cell. Some measurements indicate that monoatomic hydrogen and O2 gas can release more energy than simple H2 O2 gas...
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: wizkycho on June 05, 2006, 10:51:30 AM
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 04, 2006, 10:52:06 PM
It seems, the electrolysis is so efficient,
because he is powering just the 2 outer electrodes only,
but the other electrodes between are not connected to the power supply,
but also generate oxyhydrogen gas !
Have a look again here:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US2005258049&F=0

this site made both types of exp. +,- and +,0,- type cell
first was tube +,- type then +,0,- in plexy. after tried +,0,- he states somwhere in text that much more gas
is produced with +,- (per watt) and moves to building +,-. Then illogically he ends up with building huge +,0,- type with no explanation why he made that turn and there is no report of finished unit.
http://www.oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My_Projects/_Over_Unity_Related_Projects/Electrolysis
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: pg46 on June 05, 2006, 02:43:22 PM
Hi-
I'm not sure you're all clear on this cell construction mentioned here.
This is a common "series" type of cell where only the end plates are connected, one to the positive and one to the negative at each end. The ones in between are "not" connected except by the common electrolyte. These plates are sometimes refered to as "negative" or "floating" plates. The input voltage is divided up evenly by the number of plates. If for example you had 12VDC input and 7 plates in total then you'd have a 6 cell electrolyser. There would be then be 2 volts per cell. If instead you had say 14VDC input and 8 plates you'd have a 7 cell unit with 2 volts each.
Some people have 120VDC input and use 60 plates in a row. None of the plates are wired up except the 2 end plates. The gas produced of course depends on the plate size, the voltage, the electrolyte and temperature. It's been found that there is no gain in using more than 2VDC per cell so these series cell units are an excellant design for efficient regular electrolysis.
One needs to seperate, or seal the plates from each other as otherwise there is too much voltage bypass in the plates. In other words there wouldn't be even distribution of the voltage between the cells.
One could have an ordinary  2 plate design running 12VDC and say drawing 12 amps. This is a 144 watt unit. Its not going to produce much gas though and it will get plenty hot too creating for you lots of problems not to mention that its not very efficient at all since its using more than 2 Volts in the cell.

Just though I'd mention a couple of points.

Best-
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: wizkycho on June 06, 2006, 10:11:57 AM
Quote from: pg46 on June 05, 2006, 02:43:22 PM
Hi-
I'm not sure you're all clear on this cell construction mentioned here.
This is a common "series" type of cell where only the end plates are connected, one to the positive and one to the negative at each end. The ones in between are "not" connected except by the common electrolyte. These plates are sometimes refered to as "negative" or "floating" plates. The input voltage is divided up evenly by the number of plates. If for example you had 12VDC input and 7 plates in total then you'd have a 6 cell electrolyser. There would be then be 2 volts per cell. If instead you had say 14VDC input and 8 plates you'd have a 7 cell unit with 2 volts each.
Some people have 120VDC input and use 60 plates in a row. None of the plates are wired up except the 2 end plates. The gas produced of course depends on the plate size, the voltage, the electrolyte and temperature. It's been found that there is no gain in using more than 2VDC per cell so these series cell units are an excellant design for efficient regular electrolysis.
One needs to seperate, or seal the plates from each other as otherwise there is too much voltage bypass in the plates. In other words there wouldn't be even distribution of the voltage between the cells.
One could have an ordinary  2 plate design running 12VDC and say drawing 12 amps. This is a 144 watt unit. Its not going to produce much gas though and it will get plenty hot too creating for you lots of problems not to mention that its not very efficient at all since its using more than 2 Volts in the cell.

Just though I'd mention a couple of points.

Best-


You are completely wrong, certanly. 8)

   Say you have cell with connected 120 V at the end plates only (type +,0...,-) if only 2 amps goes through this allready 240W.
Farady experimented and recently many test have been made that confirms that ammount of gas
is in proportion of current through watter only.
So 12V 12A cell is 144W and will produce 6 times more gass then cell with unconected plates in between.
Will the cell heat or not depends on current density (means if plates are bigger and more of them
for same ammount of current density is lower and there is no heating). Certanly using same plates surface that 240W (type +,0...,-) will heat more.

It doesnt mean if you run 2A current through 20 unconnected plates that you suddenly runned 40A !?!
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: pg46 on June 06, 2006, 03:36:16 PM
Hi wizkycho-

You are completely wrong, certanly. :)   are you so sure about that?


Yes indeed, it is current flow that causes electrolysis to happen. I think that it has been well established that electrolysis of water starts at 1.23 Volts. Voltage doesn't matter directly excepting of course that you need enough volts to push the current through the cell, anymore than that and you are waisting wattage and your cell will be inefficient. The voltage across the cell is used to figure the wattage of the cell. The less voltage used to move a certain amount of amperage the more efficient the cell.
The efficiency of the plate sizing per amps used is of course very important as is the plate spacing.
Of course a multiplate series cell can have the same wattage as a single cell two plate design. A 60 plate cell using 120VDC drawing 2 amps is a 240 watt electrolyser unit whereas a 2 plate cell design at 12VDC drawing 20 amps is also the same wattage at 240 watts.
So a 2 plate(or parallel plate)or multi plate series cell design, whats the difference? The 2 plate design is a low volt, high amp design where the multi-plate or series cell is a high volt, low amp design. The series cell is easy to build too and by keeping the cell voltage to around 2 Volts per cell it is then easier to control amperage and thus avoid the ever nasty "amperage runaway" . Amperage runaway is when the electrolyte solution continuously heats up thereby drawing more amps which then creates even more heat, which creates more steam and will soon give you a big headache. :D You don't want that.
Some experimenters have shown a 3X increase in gas production of a series cell over 2 plate (parallel plate) designs. Also many have claimed that additional special gases are created in low amp cells. There is some interesting thoughts about why this might be. At high amps you produce as expected oxygen and hydrogen gas with maybe some water vapor. But at low amp designs as in the series cells, some claim that other forms of hydrogen are produced such as orthohydrogen from low amp cells and monohydrogen produced from pulsed input voltages etc. These "other" gases are supposedly a lot more powerful in terms of energy than regular gases produced by what some of us call "brute force" electrolysis which is the high amp electrolysers.
Oops! I am getting deeper than I intended - so back to my  original point which was that Mr. Klein has built a common series cell design which is easy to build and which I agree can be very efficient. But with the exception of his elctronics which I didn't look into, he hasn't built anything magical.
The general consensus amongst cell builders seems to heavily favor the multi plate, low amp series cell design over the other "brute force" cells.
So don't fry your cells with high amps! Go with the series cells like our good friend Mr. Klein has done  8)

Best,
Title: Re: HHO watergas, very low power water electrolysis !
Post by: curbina on June 10, 2006, 03:00:01 AM
Hi, well, I have been lurking here from time to time, but never registered till today, as I just was looking what you had to say about this HHO gas generator system.

I have been looking all aspects of this invention and so far found that it does not generate pure hydrogen and or oxygen, but is rather creating what Ruggero Santilli has called "A New Gaseous form of water", which is said to be magnecules, or atoms of H and O bound by magnetism rather than charge.

I have done the calculations on energy effciency and could say that it roughly puts 6 times more energy in the form of HHO gas than the electric energy input (gives 30 Kw in the form of gas, or 2 pounds of a 50.000 btu/ pound HHO gas, for each 5 Kw consumed), which is good but would not let much room for overunity with a 20% efficient internal combustion engine. It could run at best continuosly but without much spare energy to use.

If you dont believe me, I attached the Santilli paper about HHO Gas (Santilli worked with Denny Klein for the patent application for this device).

What mystifies me is that the gas can change the temperature according to the surface it touches. This is a whole new field in Physics, and Santilli has been ignored enough to believe that now is time for change.

I'd say that as long as this company markets this technology as a welding gas, it's gonna be allowed, but if they insist in automotive uses, they are doomed.