Well worth the watch and the replicating, as it has been all along :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_iyr_ng1Us
Gary.
I think we either need to 1) take his word for it or 2) see some scope shots. No reason to not believe it's just a measurement error.
I vaguely remember coming across info on this before and I think it might have been from Aaron on energeticforum.com , Sounds interesting but not an easy DIY project for sure.
What can be interesting in a project such as this one not having even an inkling of OU behavior?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
What can be interesting in a project such as this one not having even an inkling of OU behavior?
and how can your comment be helpful to anyone? expand or butt out.
Quote from: tak22 on January 07, 2011, 02:31:44 PM
and how can your comment be helpful to anyone? expand or butt out.
My comment is helpful to anyone who doesn't want to be gullible when being interested in OU. There is no reason to believe the project at hand has anything to do with OU and this has to be spelled out clearly. It only shows lack of proper understanding of the measurement basics on the side of the person presenting the project.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 03:03:34 PM
It only shows lack of proper understanding of the measurement basics on the side of the person presenting the project.
thank you, that's the kind of help you need to put forward. ideally you'd back that up with details of
why you think it's a flawed measurement.
tak
Quote from: tak22 on January 07, 2011, 03:42:14 PM
thank you, that's the kind of help you need to put forward. ideally you'd back that up with details of
why you think it's a flawed measurement.
tak
Because he is not measuring the instantaneous current and voltage values taken at very small time intervals which he should then multiply and integrate to obtain the real energy-time dependence. What he's doing is a very common mistake and is the reason for so much confusion in the OU community.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:09:07 PM
Because he is not measuring the instantaneous current and voltage values taken at very small time intervals which he should then multiply and integrate to obtain the real energy-time dependence. What he's doing is a very common mistake and is the reason for so much confusion in the OU community.
SPAM
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 04:09:07 PM
Because he is not measuring the instantaneous current and voltage values taken at very small time intervals which he should then multiply and integrate to obtain the real energy-time dependence. What he's doing is a very common mistake and is the reason for so much confusion in the OU community.
Hi Omnibus,
If you mean the instantaneous current and voltage at his output, then it is not really needed in his case because he full wave rectified the AC induced voltage and uses those huge 330uF 450V electrolytic puffer caps. I suppose all this, assuming he, Tom did not change this part of his setup from earlier tests shown in earlier videos. Should he measure AC output from the huge coil under the rotating magnet you were really right.
I would suggest Tom to check the DC current taken out from the 12V output of the power supply and confront the results that way too. To do this, he would simply use the DMM on the left that showed the DC 34V output and he ough to hook it up as an ammeter directly at the 12V output of the supply, the other ammeter at the output ought to stay as showing the output current of .234A as usual. This way he would approach the truth on input and output powers more precisely.
Maybe his Kill a Watt power meter should also be checked with a known value power resistor, just giving 3.5W AC load to his 240V mains via the power meter. If he could use a R=16.46 kOhm resistor (R=240
2/3.5), the meter ought to display around 3.5W... Of course such value resistor does not exist, it should be assembled from series and / or parallel combinations. I would certainly check this too, if I were Tom, once such results seem coming he is showing.
Rgds, Gyula
@gyulasun,
How about the input? Or both inpu and output are DC. Then, you're right as long as they are really DC at steady-state. If that's the case he should be able to makeitself-sustaining and all these questions of measurement will become moot. Why doesn't hejustmakeit self-sustaining and kill all critics' arguments.
You mean the input to his setup FROM the power supply or you mean the AC input TO the power supply from the mains? And please ask more concretely on that. Thanks
Quote from: gyulasun on January 07, 2011, 05:38:49 PM
You mean the input to his setup FROM the power supply or you mean the AC input TO the power supply from the mains? And please ask more concretely on that. Thanks
What I'm interested in is what is the input into the device (the coil or whatever) itself -- is it AC or DC?
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 05:36:10 PM
@gyulasun,
How about the input? Or both inpu and output are DC. Then, you're right as long as they are really DC at steady-state. If that's the case he should be able to makeitself-sustaining and all these questions of measurement will become moot. Why doesn't hejustmakeit self-sustaining and kill all critics' arguments.
Well, my understanding his setup is this: He measures (with the Kill A Watt) AC input power taken by his power supply from the 240V mains and also measures the DC output voltage and DC current taken out from his setup (the load seems to be a 4 LED lamp, I assume this). Looping would need using a specially made DC/AC converter that takes in the 34V and 235mA and makes 240V AC, I do not think Tom could solve this inverter building. First he could check the two things I suggested above, and then we could better judge what is at stake here...
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 05:41:41 PM
What I'm interested in is what is the input into the device (the coil or whatever) itself -- is it AC or DC?
Ok, I understand it is 12V DC taken from the power supply output, DC current taken here is presently unknown, this is one thing what I suggest he measure.
Quote from: gyulasun on January 07, 2011, 05:47:06 PM
Well, my understanding his setup is this: He measures (with the Kill A Watt) AC input power taken by his power supply from the 240V mains and also measures the DC output voltage and DC current taken out from his setup (the load seems to be a 4 LED lamp, I assume this). Looping would need using a specially made DC/AC converter that takes in the 34V and 235mA and makes 240V AC, I do not think Tom could solve this inverter building. First he could check the two things I suggested above, and then we could better judge what is at stake here...
Why measure the input into the AC power suplly. That's not the input into his device. The input into his device is after the power supply and I gather it's DC (nevertheless, current-time and voltage-time transients, bothfortheinput andthe outpushave to be clearly presented). Thus, if he's getting greater power out he should be able to loop it without using a converter. A transformer will do.
You should ask the whys from him I am afraid...
By the way a switch mode DC/DC converter ought to be used for looping which also stabilizes its 12V output which would feed his device's 12V DC input. A transformer is not enough.
Quote from: gyulasun on January 07, 2011, 05:56:14 PM
You should ask the whys from him I am afraid...
By the way a switch mode DC/DC converter ought to be used for looping which also stabilizes its 12V output which would feed his device's 12V DC input. A transformer is not enough.
Well, but I'm asking you, do you agree that the input should be at the input of the power supply. The power supply isn't part of the claimed device, is it? Besides, if he's measuring the input tothe power supply then he must use the instantaneous values method.
The power supply is not part of the device, any 12V DC source should operate his device, assuming the source meets the device current needs.
Quote from: gyulasun on January 07, 2011, 06:01:27 PM
The power supply is not part of the device, any 12V DC source should operate his device, assuming the source meets the device current needs.
Right. I hope he is reading this and shows the input and the output current-time and voltage-time dependences, measured at the proper input and output, so that we can be sure that's indeed DC. If he still observes more out than in then next step is to use the switch mode DC/DC converter, as you suggested, and have the device run in a self-sustaining mode. That's when we should get excited.
Quote from: Omnibus on January 07, 2011, 07:40:51 PM
Right. I hope he is reading this and shows the input and the output current-time and voltage-time dependences, measured at the proper input and output, so that we can be sure that's indeed DC. If he still observes more out than in then next step is to use the switch mode DC/DC converter, as you suggested, and have the device run in a self-sustaining mode. That's when we should get excited.
Spam.
What is the whole 'spam' thing with XS and Omnibus ? !
Anyway, Tom's probably not reading this ashe is always building, building, building. He's a retired commercial aircraft engineer and therefore has lots of time on his hands.
I can only assume he is measuring the power used by his PSU as that should, logically, be taken into account; as it takes power to generate power in the PSU.
Given that it's DC in and DC out (obviously at different frequencies) and he does not own an oscilloscope this is probably the most accurate way he can currently measure it.
As it stands, using these methods, it appears that the power out exceeds the power in by a little over 2 Watts.
The principle is the same as Joseph Newman's device, which was appraised by a number of scientists and found to be providing excess energy, this was using proper testing methodology, Newman is discussed in this PDF :
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter11.pdf
Someone posted earlier that this isn't an easy DIY project. In fact it's very easy, the relevant links are in qvision's second post on this page :
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6894-please-replicate.html
I have been working in parallell (though slightly behind) with Tom for nearly a year but have not caught up with his most up-to-date circuit but, due to this latest development, i will certainly be catching up with him as soon as i can.
Damn i've just realised something, he's measuring AC in but DC out, that's not good is it ?
Gary.
I am afraid that in this case I must agree with Omnibus.
Even a cheap surplus oscilloscope would likely provide enough information to make some "bulbs" light up in some heads. Pulsed systems can be very tricky to analyze.
I suggest we engage Lawrence as the measuring engineer on this project.
@Tinselkoala, you are right re measurement . I remember a thread last year where the guy thought he had a energy multiplyer. i sent a physasist and electrical engineer to assist him with a scope. Soon found out his device rather than being cop2 was actually about 80%....but was able to cheat the power meter easily (rather handy). These power meter used in this example are easily fooled. You need to read dc in dc out or better still...close loop it.
Mark